Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules
AA62 - Golfer story
Chris K is a very good friend of mine, though we were never on the same squadron - I did 48 & 30 and he was 47 & 24. We were neighbours in Alexander Drive, Cirencester, along with Jeff Berryman & Don Grange.
In fact he was at my son's wedding 5 weeks ago.
After the 'Golfer' he and his Flt Cdr, who had also been on the aircraft, had to go to Upavon for a boll*cking. Said Sqn Ldr, name rhymes with Parrot, gave Chris quite a hard time in the car on the way there, with comments like 'You've ruined my career'.
Chris was so pi55ed off with the whole affair that, despite being a child of the services - his dad had been a Wg Cdr and brother a Cranwell graduate - he resigned his commission! He had been committed to 38 point and did not have 8 & 12 options.
He spent 5 years with BA before joining Cathay in 1978. He was the most senior of the '49ers' sacked by Cathay ( pour encourager les autres! ) in 2001.
A top top bloke; I feel privileged to be counted as one of his mates.
In fact he was at my son's wedding 5 weeks ago.
After the 'Golfer' he and his Flt Cdr, who had also been on the aircraft, had to go to Upavon for a boll*cking. Said Sqn Ldr, name rhymes with Parrot, gave Chris quite a hard time in the car on the way there, with comments like 'You've ruined my career'.
Chris was so pi55ed off with the whole affair that, despite being a child of the services - his dad had been a Wg Cdr and brother a Cranwell graduate - he resigned his commission! He had been committed to 38 point and did not have 8 & 12 options.
He spent 5 years with BA before joining Cathay in 1978. He was the most senior of the '49ers' sacked by Cathay ( pour encourager les autres! ) in 2001.
A top top bloke; I feel privileged to be counted as one of his mates.
Coff
Thanks again for putting the map here - I can understand your reasoning except the headland north of Kpg T Sari does not have a small hill on it and does not sweep around the bay as much as much.
I didn't show enough of the map to indicate Pulau Tioman, which rises to 3406' AMSL - it could be the tip of that in the distance. I expect you all know that Tioman was used for some of the scenes in the film Bali Hai.
Anne and I went there in '98, we flew in from Seletar where IIRC there was a Belfast parked. I can't remember the name of the operator but they had a Herc' in the same livery.
I didn't show enough of the map to indicate Pulau Tioman, which rises to 3406' AMSL - it could be the tip of that in the distance. I expect you all know that Tioman was used for some of the scenes in the film Bali Hai.
Anne and I went there in '98, we flew in from Seletar where IIRC there was a Belfast parked. I can't remember the name of the operator but they had a Herc' in the same livery.
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Coffman
I can see arguments for both locations - however navs were supposed to concentrate on where they were going rather than where they had been so wrong person to ask! Also I never got to such exotic places
AA62
You are so right about taking more care of photos. I have lots of Bevs in the sand, but almost none of my time on Hercs.
I can see arguments for both locations - however navs were supposed to concentrate on where they were going rather than where they had been so wrong person to ask! Also I never got to such exotic places
AA62
You are so right about taking more care of photos. I have lots of Bevs in the sand, but almost none of my time on Hercs.
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Thanks chaps ... AA62, Brian and Nimbev ... It will be my pleasure to stand you all a beer or two if we ever get the opportunity to meet some fine day 
Right ... With 79,000 'Hits' and just over 1,000 contributions to this Thread ... Where are we going next AA62 ? ... You've still got a story to shake Drags holiday 'cocktail' ... and at some point the Herc Stream pics
Best ...
Coff.
Right ... With 79,000 'Hits' and just over 1,000 contributions to this Thread ... Where are we going next AA62 ? ... You've still got a story to shake Drags holiday 'cocktail' ... and at some point the Herc Stream pics
Best ...
Coff.
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PS ... Nimbev ... 'Bevs In The Sand' what a cracking title for a new PPRuNe Thread ...
Happy to help with pic posting if you need assistance
Coff.
Happy to help with pic posting if you need assistance
Coff.
A civilian observers story. About 20 years ago sitting on the beach on the Luce Bay range listening and trying to spot a Harrier dropping munitions.
As Harrier clears a Hercules begins a run over West Frugh airfield at around 500' and drops 3 paratroops then circles around and drops 3 more. So I jump in my car to drive over to get a better look. On rounding a bend in the round I find a RAF Landrover parked in the road and a parachutist with his canopy fully covering a large tree and needing a ladder. The delay it caused ended with the airfield announcing to the pilot it was now closing and the plane and its occupants would have to stay the night!
Another memory of that holiday was watching a Herk fly by the cottage I was staying in but below it in the valley in twilight!
mmitch.
As Harrier clears a Hercules begins a run over West Frugh airfield at around 500' and drops 3 paratroops then circles around and drops 3 more. So I jump in my car to drive over to get a better look. On rounding a bend in the round I find a RAF Landrover parked in the road and a parachutist with his canopy fully covering a large tree and needing a ladder. The delay it caused ended with the airfield announcing to the pilot it was now closing and the plane and its occupants would have to stay the night!
Another memory of that holiday was watching a Herk fly by the cottage I was staying in but below it in the valley in twilight!
mmitch.
Coffman,
I think it is us 'K' posters who owe you a beer for triggering this output of pics and tales of the old beast. Airdrop story tomorrow. Had a tooth out today so not as awake as I should be.
I think it is us 'K' posters who owe you a beer for triggering this output of pics and tales of the old beast. Airdrop story tomorrow. Had a tooth out today so not as awake as I should be.
Brian,
if you see Chris give him my regards. And I know Don Grange and Jeff Berryman from the early days. Did you ever use Gong Kedah (?) airfield when you were on 48 ?
if you see Chris give him my regards. And I know Don Grange and Jeff Berryman from the early days. Did you ever use Gong Kedah (?) airfield when you were on 48 ?
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Happy to help with pic posting if you need assistance
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With respect to DACT, it wasn't just the SF crews that trained, but the Tanker crews that were going Down South.
A single F4 was always easy, get down into the weedosphere and keep turning and you would win every time. Two F4s was more difficult.
Harriers were a pain in the rear end.
Interestingly I was involved with a trial with the GR1, the idea being the GR1's cannons were downwards pointing (for strafe) so the theory went that they would be able to engage us from above when we were at low level in a way that normal AD fighters could not.
Cue an hour in Scotand wazzing about while a couple of clean GR1s tried to engage us (ably supported by a Tanker).
After an hour it was apparent that they couldn't.
A single F4 was always easy, get down into the weedosphere and keep turning and you would win every time. Two F4s was more difficult.
Harriers were a pain in the rear end.
Interestingly I was involved with a trial with the GR1, the idea being the GR1's cannons were downwards pointing (for strafe) so the theory went that they would be able to engage us from above when we were at low level in a way that normal AD fighters could not.
Cue an hour in Scotand wazzing about while a couple of clean GR1s tried to engage us (ably supported by a Tanker).
After an hour it was apparent that they couldn't.
Last edited by ExAscoteer; 8th Aug 2014 at 09:37.
Another airdrop tale. When I was on JATE (Joint Air Transport Establishment) the remit was the trialing of airdrop and air portability equipment in the 'K'.
We would be tasked by an external agency to do whatever trial they requested.
One day we were tasked to do a trip in support of the defence sales arm of MOD.
The (very) optimistic overall plan was to try to sell the 105 mm Anglo-Italian light field gun to the USA. We were to fly to Pope AFB in North Carolina (hands up how many have been there !) and airdrop the gun on an MSP. This was not a real problem as we had been dropping it for a while, usually with the prime mover which was a 1 tonne Land Rover. The gun was put on the platform first then the one tonne 'sat' on top. Then they were surrounded by all the ammo etc needed. Dragartist would not be impressed by where the vertical C of G would end up !
However MOD wanted to make a real impression and drop the MSP with the gunners going out on the same run using the 22 ft steerable, for which they would need training ! We pointed out that we did not have a clearance for this combo as it had never been trialed.
On an ABEX the heavy drop either used an adjacent Dz to the troops or went in first . Thus the gunners would be in the main para stream. You could get two MSPs in an a/c and to leave space for the gunners would reduce this to one.
No problem says MOD, do a feasibility study . And so we did fitting it in around our other work.
The other ALM and myself very quickly identified the main problems. Apart from a few specialised a/c fittings with which I will not bore you, which we designed and JATE workshops made, there were two major showstoppers as far as we were concerned. The first was the safety of the gunners (RHA paras) as they followed the departing MSP down the a/c. One any such airdrop role the cargo floor is a trap for even the very experienced. There are side guidance beams, transverse beams, floor protection kit and restraint beams etc. We thought this could be overcome by careful briefing and rehearsals on the ground before attempting a practice drop.
The real problem was the Transfer Release Cable (TROC) which you can see clearly whipping about in my previous pic. We were very concerned that it would cause problems for the exiting paras. The problem was how to prevent this. We had several 'helpful' suggestions none of which we liked.
You monkeyed about with the TROC at your peril. If it operates too early in the sequence then you run a real risk of the platform rotating inside the a/c. Not good. If it did not operate at all then the platform would descend vertically and not horizontally. This would not do it and the load any favours.
We had several other MSP trials on the go at the same time so had a chance to study the problem in situ. My colleague suggested that if one of us followed the MSP down the port side as it departed perhaps we could JUST grab the TROC and pull it right over to the port side as the paras shuffled down the centre of the a/c, which was the safest way to get them aft to jump. We tried it out on a 'routine' MSP drop and it seemed to work.
After the gunners had received 22 foot training we had two full dress rehearsals. My colleague was i/c TROC retrieval (well it was his idea) and I was responsible for the paras who were briefed NOT to jump without a positive signal from me whatever the colour of the jump lights. It all worked better than we had hoped (low tech rules OK) so we were good to go to 'no hope Pope' as the USAF called it. We just had to remember to take all the bits and bobs needed for the final part of the installation. Oh and the HUPRA !
On 29 Aug 1976 we set off for Pope via Gander (a pound for every time I have been there) in XV 191 arriving in Pope the following day. The next day was spent doing the final rigging and VERY careful checks of the complete installation. We spent some of the time answering questions as the US airdrop system is very different.
On September 1 we flew from Pope to 'Sicily' DZ .My logbook records 55 mins so perhaps we did a mini LL but I do not remember.
The actual drop worked perfectly, with both MSP and troops playing their parts to perfection. It was a great to see the MSP floating 'gently' down under all sail and to count six perfect 22 feet canopies. We just looked at each other and our grins were mainly for relief !
We were told that the gunners unloaded the gun etc in record time and fired off a dummy round to prove it worked. We had several beers that night.
Did the US buy the gun ? NO ! Probably on the NIH (not invented here) principle.
We had huge problems getting back not the gun but the 1 tonne L/R which the troops loved ! Eventually on 5 Sept we set off for Barksdale AFB to pick up a few bits of kit left over from a V Bomber det. After a n/s we set off next day only to return with what my log book records as 'engine problem'.
I do not recall what the problem was but I do remember helping the G/E on a very hot and humid night change something (ignitors ?) on the engine as my small hands made access easier. We came home via Gander and back to Brize. I can still smell the parched earth as we descended after the famous 1976 heatwave.
All in all a successful and interesting trip.
We would be tasked by an external agency to do whatever trial they requested.
One day we were tasked to do a trip in support of the defence sales arm of MOD.
The (very) optimistic overall plan was to try to sell the 105 mm Anglo-Italian light field gun to the USA. We were to fly to Pope AFB in North Carolina (hands up how many have been there !) and airdrop the gun on an MSP. This was not a real problem as we had been dropping it for a while, usually with the prime mover which was a 1 tonne Land Rover. The gun was put on the platform first then the one tonne 'sat' on top. Then they were surrounded by all the ammo etc needed. Dragartist would not be impressed by where the vertical C of G would end up !
However MOD wanted to make a real impression and drop the MSP with the gunners going out on the same run using the 22 ft steerable, for which they would need training ! We pointed out that we did not have a clearance for this combo as it had never been trialed.
On an ABEX the heavy drop either used an adjacent Dz to the troops or went in first . Thus the gunners would be in the main para stream. You could get two MSPs in an a/c and to leave space for the gunners would reduce this to one.
No problem says MOD, do a feasibility study . And so we did fitting it in around our other work.
The other ALM and myself very quickly identified the main problems. Apart from a few specialised a/c fittings with which I will not bore you, which we designed and JATE workshops made, there were two major showstoppers as far as we were concerned. The first was the safety of the gunners (RHA paras) as they followed the departing MSP down the a/c. One any such airdrop role the cargo floor is a trap for even the very experienced. There are side guidance beams, transverse beams, floor protection kit and restraint beams etc. We thought this could be overcome by careful briefing and rehearsals on the ground before attempting a practice drop.
The real problem was the Transfer Release Cable (TROC) which you can see clearly whipping about in my previous pic. We were very concerned that it would cause problems for the exiting paras. The problem was how to prevent this. We had several 'helpful' suggestions none of which we liked.
You monkeyed about with the TROC at your peril. If it operates too early in the sequence then you run a real risk of the platform rotating inside the a/c. Not good. If it did not operate at all then the platform would descend vertically and not horizontally. This would not do it and the load any favours.
We had several other MSP trials on the go at the same time so had a chance to study the problem in situ. My colleague suggested that if one of us followed the MSP down the port side as it departed perhaps we could JUST grab the TROC and pull it right over to the port side as the paras shuffled down the centre of the a/c, which was the safest way to get them aft to jump. We tried it out on a 'routine' MSP drop and it seemed to work.
After the gunners had received 22 foot training we had two full dress rehearsals. My colleague was i/c TROC retrieval (well it was his idea) and I was responsible for the paras who were briefed NOT to jump without a positive signal from me whatever the colour of the jump lights. It all worked better than we had hoped (low tech rules OK) so we were good to go to 'no hope Pope' as the USAF called it. We just had to remember to take all the bits and bobs needed for the final part of the installation. Oh and the HUPRA !
On 29 Aug 1976 we set off for Pope via Gander (a pound for every time I have been there) in XV 191 arriving in Pope the following day. The next day was spent doing the final rigging and VERY careful checks of the complete installation. We spent some of the time answering questions as the US airdrop system is very different.
On September 1 we flew from Pope to 'Sicily' DZ .My logbook records 55 mins so perhaps we did a mini LL but I do not remember.
The actual drop worked perfectly, with both MSP and troops playing their parts to perfection. It was a great to see the MSP floating 'gently' down under all sail and to count six perfect 22 feet canopies. We just looked at each other and our grins were mainly for relief !
We were told that the gunners unloaded the gun etc in record time and fired off a dummy round to prove it worked. We had several beers that night.
Did the US buy the gun ? NO ! Probably on the NIH (not invented here) principle.
We had huge problems getting back not the gun but the 1 tonne L/R which the troops loved ! Eventually on 5 Sept we set off for Barksdale AFB to pick up a few bits of kit left over from a V Bomber det. After a n/s we set off next day only to return with what my log book records as 'engine problem'.
I do not recall what the problem was but I do remember helping the G/E on a very hot and humid night change something (ignitors ?) on the engine as my small hands made access easier. We came home via Gander and back to Brize. I can still smell the parched earth as we descended after the famous 1976 heatwave.
All in all a successful and interesting trip.
Yes I know we have had this pic before but I thought it may help make more sense of my MSP tale. It was not taken on the Pope trip and it may not be the gun/1 tonne combo (perhaps someone can confirm or otherwise) but it gives a good idea of what it would have looked like and some of the 'floor furniture' traps that the paras had to avoid as they shuffled down the a/c.
Interesting Aerodynamic Occasion
It was a dark and stormy night and the Captain said to the Mate, actually it was a quite warm night at a little strip on an island in the east of the Med, later to gain some fame for an incident concerning brakes and a Herc, and nobody said anything to anybody and there lies the problem.
It was the culmination of an Infill/Exfill mission with the boys from Hereford practicing on a nearby major airbase. The first part of the sortie had gone off fine, the landing being carried out with the Co on NVG, ( this was pre 1980 so the flight deck was not NVG compatible apart from tapeing over some of the brighter lights on the Panel, those being mainly the warning indications! ) and the recovery also being quickly carried out, the fact that the Op name was Wild Goose may have been the reason the boys stayed close to the aircraft, they must have seen the film as well.
Arriving back at the little strip an engine running offload was carried out under operational conditions, only red lighting down the back and the Captain offered a lift back to the main base to the air trafficers at the strip to save them driving back to the main base. The Loadie, G.E. and dispatcher then get involved in tidying up the back of the aircraft and then securing the air traffic Sherpa and the air traffic guys board the aircraft and lurk by the wheelwells. Captain feels he needs update on whether the aircraft is ready to go and as everybody down the back is off the intercom asks for confirmation on are we ok to depart. A member of the flight deck goes to the ladder and gives an interrogative thumbs up to the bods he can see down the back and receives back a confirmatory thumbs up. On being told all is well Captain advances throttles and releases brakes and commences take off run.
Sheer hell brakes loose down the back as the Loadie is under the Sherpa chaining it down, the G.E. is approaching the ramp hinge line with an armful of strops and the dispatcher is taken off balance and falls over just behind the G.E. taking his legs out from under him with both off them ending up by the ramp controls with the G.E. sitting on the dispatcher. Instant thought of "O. ...T" and swift selection of up ramp got the ramp above horizontal before rotation and up and locked shortly after.
This was followed by the Loadie, A... ......y, storming onto the flight deck to find out what the hell was happening, if not quite in those words.
At the very quiet and rather alcoholic debrief afterwards it turned out that it was the air traffic bods who had received and returned the thumbs up thinking it was, are you on board?, yes we are! You might ask didn't any body see the Ramp and Door warning light, remember the cockpit wasn't NVG compatible and some lights had been taped over, guess which was one of them as the infill was a door open approach and landing with the ADS arms disconnected and stowed. It went to prove that sometimes you perceive things to be what you expect rather than what they really are!
I always wondered what the effect of taking off with the ramp in that position would be but didn't ask as I decided I might not like the answer.
It was the culmination of an Infill/Exfill mission with the boys from Hereford practicing on a nearby major airbase. The first part of the sortie had gone off fine, the landing being carried out with the Co on NVG, ( this was pre 1980 so the flight deck was not NVG compatible apart from tapeing over some of the brighter lights on the Panel, those being mainly the warning indications! ) and the recovery also being quickly carried out, the fact that the Op name was Wild Goose may have been the reason the boys stayed close to the aircraft, they must have seen the film as well.
Arriving back at the little strip an engine running offload was carried out under operational conditions, only red lighting down the back and the Captain offered a lift back to the main base to the air trafficers at the strip to save them driving back to the main base. The Loadie, G.E. and dispatcher then get involved in tidying up the back of the aircraft and then securing the air traffic Sherpa and the air traffic guys board the aircraft and lurk by the wheelwells. Captain feels he needs update on whether the aircraft is ready to go and as everybody down the back is off the intercom asks for confirmation on are we ok to depart. A member of the flight deck goes to the ladder and gives an interrogative thumbs up to the bods he can see down the back and receives back a confirmatory thumbs up. On being told all is well Captain advances throttles and releases brakes and commences take off run.
Sheer hell brakes loose down the back as the Loadie is under the Sherpa chaining it down, the G.E. is approaching the ramp hinge line with an armful of strops and the dispatcher is taken off balance and falls over just behind the G.E. taking his legs out from under him with both off them ending up by the ramp controls with the G.E. sitting on the dispatcher. Instant thought of "O. ...T" and swift selection of up ramp got the ramp above horizontal before rotation and up and locked shortly after.
This was followed by the Loadie, A... ......y, storming onto the flight deck to find out what the hell was happening, if not quite in those words.
At the very quiet and rather alcoholic debrief afterwards it turned out that it was the air traffic bods who had received and returned the thumbs up thinking it was, are you on board?, yes we are! You might ask didn't any body see the Ramp and Door warning light, remember the cockpit wasn't NVG compatible and some lights had been taped over, guess which was one of them as the infill was a door open approach and landing with the ADS arms disconnected and stowed. It went to prove that sometimes you perceive things to be what you expect rather than what they really are!
I always wondered what the effect of taking off with the ramp in that position would be but didn't ask as I decided I might not like the answer.
gopher01,
a classic tale from which only providence/luck has saved the day(well night). People forget that the early SF 'frames' were nothing of the sort, in respect of kit or the lack of it. Regarding the door master warning light it could be put out with the crew entrance door still fully open ! When we first got the 'K' we had lots of crew entrance door warning light problems usually as we climbed out. Eventually the staff 'solution' was to remove the door closed microswitch and rely on the door locked microswitch So you could turn the crew entrance door handle to the locked position with the door fully open and it would put out the master door caption. I think we were the only Herc operator to do this.
a classic tale from which only providence/luck has saved the day(well night). People forget that the early SF 'frames' were nothing of the sort, in respect of kit or the lack of it. Regarding the door master warning light it could be put out with the crew entrance door still fully open ! When we first got the 'K' we had lots of crew entrance door warning light problems usually as we climbed out. Eventually the staff 'solution' was to remove the door closed microswitch and rely on the door locked microswitch So you could turn the crew entrance door handle to the locked position with the door fully open and it would put out the master door caption. I think we were the only Herc operator to do this.
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A couple of great tales AA62 and Gopher
What's impressed me with these tales has been the level of practical problem solving needed on every mission ... proving that nothing is/was ever routine in the Herc World ... and if the entire crew didn't keep their wits about them ... someone was going to get bitten.
Simply fascinating ... please don't stop ... I'm sure others will be encouraged to share similar tales ...
PS. I'm sure the Statute of Limitations applies
What's impressed me with these tales has been the level of practical problem solving needed on every mission ... proving that nothing is/was ever routine in the Herc World ... and if the entire crew didn't keep their wits about them ... someone was going to get bitten.
Simply fascinating ... please don't stop ... I'm sure others will be encouraged to share similar tales ...
PS. I'm sure the Statute of Limitations applies
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I just wonder if a few Flight Deck members could comment on the stick forces and trim changes as some of this heavy duty kit whizzed out the backend ... there must have been quite significant CofG changes as the load moved and then exited 
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Two interesting tales from AA62 and gopher -
One of the (few) advantages of the Bev was the ability to do a combined drop. 2 MSPs down below and 30 troops in the boom and drop them on one run. By the time one added in all the safety margins you needed a bloody big DZ and the paras inevitably had a long hike to get to their vehicles.
On an ABEX the heavy drop either used an adjacent Dz to the troops or went in first
nimbev,
when we went to para wedge dropping with door bundles and then the troops on the same run you did indeed need a big DZ. Would not be the first time the 'red' has come on with 3/4 paras to go. They went anyway as there was no realistic way to stop them. As you infer the troops did not like the long walk back to retrieve the kit. When were you on the 'K' ?
when we went to para wedge dropping with door bundles and then the troops on the same run you did indeed need a big DZ. Would not be the first time the 'red' has come on with 3/4 paras to go. They went anyway as there was no realistic way to stop them. As you infer the troops did not like the long walk back to retrieve the kit. When were you on the 'K' ?
Coffman,
there will be a driver along soon I am sure but plotting out the trim forces on paper showed triple ULLA to be the worst. I remember the trim line went from one side of the trim sheet (not just the envelope) to the other. But the speed at which the extracted loads departed meant that these extreme trim changes were transitory and over very quickly. We did have an allowed extension to the normal trim envelope which was sometimes intruded into when dropping 1 Ton Auto split sticks. This was to allow for the fact that this load was dropped in two separate runs and with heavy containers the a/c could be nose heavy once the aft load had gone. You could land in this configuration but the Aircrew Manual caution min brake use and max reverse to keep the load off the nosewheel. At the very forward limit the a/c was then supposed to be towed in !
On para with wedge and door bundles and a lot of fuel the trim could be fairly well aft once the paras were at 'action stations' and all had shuffled down towards the rear.
there will be a driver along soon I am sure but plotting out the trim forces on paper showed triple ULLA to be the worst. I remember the trim line went from one side of the trim sheet (not just the envelope) to the other. But the speed at which the extracted loads departed meant that these extreme trim changes were transitory and over very quickly. We did have an allowed extension to the normal trim envelope which was sometimes intruded into when dropping 1 Ton Auto split sticks. This was to allow for the fact that this load was dropped in two separate runs and with heavy containers the a/c could be nose heavy once the aft load had gone. You could land in this configuration but the Aircrew Manual caution min brake use and max reverse to keep the load off the nosewheel. At the very forward limit the a/c was then supposed to be towed in !
On para with wedge and door bundles and a lot of fuel the trim could be fairly well aft once the paras were at 'action stations' and all had shuffled down towards the rear.