Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules
Heh heh, on a trip to Oz I well remember finding myself in some very dark jungle, on the promise of a free beer. Our Nav on the trip highly recommended it. That walk showed me some of the most scary reptiles and insects I ever saw in my life. Oh yes Ksimboy, I always trust Doug 
Smudge
Smudge
Don,
Any idea what era that was introduced ? I became an ex GE in December 94, no doubt news gratefully received by many of the operating crews. I have no memory of the black "ice indicator" during my time as a GE. My last trip with XV212 was on 26 Oct 94, a Banner A, and the black indicator was not there, in fact I'm pretty sure that 212 was finished in what some described as "lizard" but others as "wraparound". I suspect that the grey paint scheme, and ice indicators were nearer to 2000, and after I had left the mob, let alone GEing. Nice to see someone thought about the consequences of changing the paint scheme though.
Smudge
Any idea what era that was introduced ? I became an ex GE in December 94, no doubt news gratefully received by many of the operating crews. I have no memory of the black "ice indicator" during my time as a GE. My last trip with XV212 was on 26 Oct 94, a Banner A, and the black indicator was not there, in fact I'm pretty sure that 212 was finished in what some described as "lizard" but others as "wraparound". I suspect that the grey paint scheme, and ice indicators were nearer to 2000, and after I had left the mob, let alone GEing. Nice to see someone thought about the consequences of changing the paint scheme though.
Smudge
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The Jungle story
Smudge alludes to being led astray sometimes in the jungles of Borneo so it behoves me to set the record straight.
Some years ago we were tasked to take a detachment of Royal Marines out on an exped to climb Mt Kinabaloo. Then while we out there collect the Ex Fincastle freight from Adelaide. Cool.
The outbound went well apart from the Royals tying one on in Colombo. The subsequent skinny dipping in the hotel pool just outside the lounge brought protests from the management. "Tell them to desist" they said. 30 pissed, naked Marines....not a chance. Several ladies in the lounge weren't at all upset by the scene.
But to the point. On arrival in Brunei we were reminded of the abstemious muslim culture and the consequent lack of post flight pop.
An ex ascoteer employed in the Royal Brunei Airlines locally suggested an alternative post flight exercise......A jungle run with the Hash House Harriers and gave a knowing wink.
OK I'll tell the boys and we'll give it a go I said. Led by the said M*** F** we plunged into the almost impenetrable jungle, hopelessly overdressed and sweating like the wild pigs we could hear in the enveloping green.
Cue lots of Lenny Henry wildlife noises interspersed with cursing sweating herc crew muttering dire threats against the person who got them into this steaming, leech infested, mossie swarm.
After a spell of chasing shredded paper through the swamp it started to get dark. Even I was becoming vexed. Then all at once we blundered out into a clearing surrounded by small trucks. The doors opened at the back by smiling Chinese people to reveal dustbins full of bottles of beer in ice. The solemn ceremonial of the harriers followed with one of the "guides" seriously chastised for losing his group in the jungle. (The Gurkhas found them unharmed)
Much later as we were being taken to F**y's house for a curry he explained that because there is no alcohol in Brunei you cannot be caught for drunk driving, you are merely indisposed. Well we were as indisposed as a newt by that time, but I have never worked so had to get a beer in my life.
Another mental scar for Smuj
Some years ago we were tasked to take a detachment of Royal Marines out on an exped to climb Mt Kinabaloo. Then while we out there collect the Ex Fincastle freight from Adelaide. Cool.
The outbound went well apart from the Royals tying one on in Colombo. The subsequent skinny dipping in the hotel pool just outside the lounge brought protests from the management. "Tell them to desist" they said. 30 pissed, naked Marines....not a chance. Several ladies in the lounge weren't at all upset by the scene.
But to the point. On arrival in Brunei we were reminded of the abstemious muslim culture and the consequent lack of post flight pop.
An ex ascoteer employed in the Royal Brunei Airlines locally suggested an alternative post flight exercise......A jungle run with the Hash House Harriers and gave a knowing wink.
OK I'll tell the boys and we'll give it a go I said. Led by the said M*** F** we plunged into the almost impenetrable jungle, hopelessly overdressed and sweating like the wild pigs we could hear in the enveloping green.
Cue lots of Lenny Henry wildlife noises interspersed with cursing sweating herc crew muttering dire threats against the person who got them into this steaming, leech infested, mossie swarm.
After a spell of chasing shredded paper through the swamp it started to get dark. Even I was becoming vexed. Then all at once we blundered out into a clearing surrounded by small trucks. The doors opened at the back by smiling Chinese people to reveal dustbins full of bottles of beer in ice. The solemn ceremonial of the harriers followed with one of the "guides" seriously chastised for losing his group in the jungle. (The Gurkhas found them unharmed)
Much later as we were being taken to F**y's house for a curry he explained that because there is no alcohol in Brunei you cannot be caught for drunk driving, you are merely indisposed. Well we were as indisposed as a newt by that time, but I have never worked so had to get a beer in my life.
Another mental scar for Smuj
As I recall, the black ice patches were instigated by H***** E****** during his time as Station Flight Safety Officer for just that, so you could see ice build up on the new 'John Major Grey' colour scheme.
XV206 recovery
Doug,
Another fine tale!
1066 here still catching up. Story of my life. I'm up to Pg133, March this year so not too far to go. Not all you read in Air Clues is 100% true! Post 2633
When it came to the air test after the outer wing of 206 had been replaced there was much politicking way above my pay scale.
The South Atlantic was still regarded as an "operational command" and MOD PE, I think it was that then, had no direct authority down there.
However, there was a release to service for the normal Hercs with no MAROC and also one for 206 as the only one with MAROC but on both wingtips. There was no release to service for any Herc with only one MAROC pod.
For the reason above MODPE could not be tasked with going south to do the air test. Lyneham would have to do it! No idea whose decision that was.
I was on HCS and was chosen not for any air test expertise but no one knew if AAR would be required for the recovery to LYE. I was one of two QFIs on HCS who had AAR experience. In fact AAR was not required.
When I was given the air test schedule it was clear that parts of it were nothing like a normal post servicing air test. Eg timed rolls from 30 aob one way to 30 aob the other side, rudder fixed. All good TP stuff but took some concentration when you are more used to using rudder when applying bank.
Something I have never regretted was talking to the TP at Marshalls. We spoke on the phone and he invited me over to Cambridge for a chat. Student crew, "today we are going to Cambridge for a couple of NDBs and a full stop".
He looked through the schedule, gave advice on adjusting the order so that time was not wasted reconfiguring unnecessarily and then the best bit of advice. Watch that one! Timed roll as above at V2 with an outboard at flight idle. Rolling towards the dead engine and pod was somewhat quicker than the other way. Oh and work down to it. Don't start at V2!
We would have to signal the results back to UK and on the basis of the results a limited release would be issued for 2 or 3 sectors.
Off to Brize with chosen crew, BA747 to MPA. The unit TP from 1312 bit may have come from the fact that we did not stay at MPA but just like old times it was back to Stanley.
3 Aug 85 air test part 1 was cut short by No 3 losing oil and shut down.
I don't think it was an engine change, more likely a seal or union because
4 Aug 85 air test part 2 completed the schedule and yes TP at Marshalls was spot on! Send off results and wait for Authorisation signal.
6 Aug 85 set off for ASI and climbing out find that we had an issue with the starboard ext tank pumps. Both switched on, both ran but switch one off and both stop! Back to MPA to get sorted. Ask jumbo to delay departure with repair crew going home until we confirmed all was well. Arrive ASI jumbo crew fast asleep! Just over 5 years later I was flying BA747s. Back at LYE on 8 Aug via a n/s DKR. Never did find out who was DWC to take 206 onto CAM.
Sad to see the photo of the demise of 206. We had 206 & 178 on Red Flag in Oct 88, when 206 had not long since become pink. It was good but the shadow on the desert floor was always the give away.
Dougie and ksimboy are quite right re the pilot of 206. In any other circumstances it would have been an AFC or Queens Commendation for Valuable Service in the Air.
Another fine tale!
1066 here still catching up. Story of my life. I'm up to Pg133, March this year so not too far to go. Not all you read in Air Clues is 100% true! Post 2633
When it came to the air test after the outer wing of 206 had been replaced there was much politicking way above my pay scale.
The South Atlantic was still regarded as an "operational command" and MOD PE, I think it was that then, had no direct authority down there.
However, there was a release to service for the normal Hercs with no MAROC and also one for 206 as the only one with MAROC but on both wingtips. There was no release to service for any Herc with only one MAROC pod.
For the reason above MODPE could not be tasked with going south to do the air test. Lyneham would have to do it! No idea whose decision that was.
I was on HCS and was chosen not for any air test expertise but no one knew if AAR would be required for the recovery to LYE. I was one of two QFIs on HCS who had AAR experience. In fact AAR was not required.
When I was given the air test schedule it was clear that parts of it were nothing like a normal post servicing air test. Eg timed rolls from 30 aob one way to 30 aob the other side, rudder fixed. All good TP stuff but took some concentration when you are more used to using rudder when applying bank.
Something I have never regretted was talking to the TP at Marshalls. We spoke on the phone and he invited me over to Cambridge for a chat. Student crew, "today we are going to Cambridge for a couple of NDBs and a full stop".
He looked through the schedule, gave advice on adjusting the order so that time was not wasted reconfiguring unnecessarily and then the best bit of advice. Watch that one! Timed roll as above at V2 with an outboard at flight idle. Rolling towards the dead engine and pod was somewhat quicker than the other way. Oh and work down to it. Don't start at V2!
We would have to signal the results back to UK and on the basis of the results a limited release would be issued for 2 or 3 sectors.
Off to Brize with chosen crew, BA747 to MPA. The unit TP from 1312 bit may have come from the fact that we did not stay at MPA but just like old times it was back to Stanley.
3 Aug 85 air test part 1 was cut short by No 3 losing oil and shut down.
I don't think it was an engine change, more likely a seal or union because
4 Aug 85 air test part 2 completed the schedule and yes TP at Marshalls was spot on! Send off results and wait for Authorisation signal.
6 Aug 85 set off for ASI and climbing out find that we had an issue with the starboard ext tank pumps. Both switched on, both ran but switch one off and both stop! Back to MPA to get sorted. Ask jumbo to delay departure with repair crew going home until we confirmed all was well. Arrive ASI jumbo crew fast asleep! Just over 5 years later I was flying BA747s. Back at LYE on 8 Aug via a n/s DKR. Never did find out who was DWC to take 206 onto CAM.
Sad to see the photo of the demise of 206. We had 206 & 178 on Red Flag in Oct 88, when 206 had not long since become pink. It was good but the shadow on the desert floor was always the give away.
Dougie and ksimboy are quite right re the pilot of 206. In any other circumstances it would have been an AFC or Queens Commendation for Valuable Service in the Air.
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Ice
The old colour scheme wasn't very good at showing ice either.......
In the early '80s we were on a trip from Singapore to Brunei (to visit the same ex-ascoteer) when, climbing through FL170, the rate of climb dropped drastically. By the time we reached FL180 the ROC had dropped to zero and the speed started to decay.
We were flying in daylight and, although there were cb's nearby, we were clear of them. Being the Tropics there was a lot of moisture in the air.
An 'animated' discussion followed, including the possibility of ice accretion. Looking along the wings, they looked normal but, on closer inspection, the sun's reflection looked a bit strange. We selected the Wing Anti-Ice 'ON' and were amazed to see huge sheets of clear ice peel off the upper surfaces of the wings. The a/c started to climb again and we went on our way, having learned a salutary lesson. Incidentally, we had no ENG ICE warning.
A few years later I was on HTS, route checking a crew member between Dulles and Belize. It was summer and there was a lot of cb activity around Dulles. During the climb the same thing happened. I suggested to the crew that they might like to operate the anti-ice and watch the wings. They were amazed as the sheets of ice flew off the wings and, afterwards, looked at me as if I was some sort of guru.
I came clean and told them about the SIN incident........after they'd bought me a few beers in Belize
I remember, after the first incident, I calculated an approximate weight of the ice on the wings. I worked out the area of the wings then using an average ice thickness of 1" came to a weight of ice.
Unfortunately, that was a long time ago and I can't remember the figure - but it was significant.
I'm sure there is an ex G/E on here who could help us out...........
In the early '80s we were on a trip from Singapore to Brunei (to visit the same ex-ascoteer) when, climbing through FL170, the rate of climb dropped drastically. By the time we reached FL180 the ROC had dropped to zero and the speed started to decay.
We were flying in daylight and, although there were cb's nearby, we were clear of them. Being the Tropics there was a lot of moisture in the air.
An 'animated' discussion followed, including the possibility of ice accretion. Looking along the wings, they looked normal but, on closer inspection, the sun's reflection looked a bit strange. We selected the Wing Anti-Ice 'ON' and were amazed to see huge sheets of clear ice peel off the upper surfaces of the wings. The a/c started to climb again and we went on our way, having learned a salutary lesson. Incidentally, we had no ENG ICE warning.
A few years later I was on HTS, route checking a crew member between Dulles and Belize. It was summer and there was a lot of cb activity around Dulles. During the climb the same thing happened. I suggested to the crew that they might like to operate the anti-ice and watch the wings. They were amazed as the sheets of ice flew off the wings and, afterwards, looked at me as if I was some sort of guru.
I came clean and told them about the SIN incident........after they'd bought me a few beers in Belize
I remember, after the first incident, I calculated an approximate weight of the ice on the wings. I worked out the area of the wings then using an average ice thickness of 1" came to a weight of ice.
Unfortunately, that was a long time ago and I can't remember the figure - but it was significant.
I'm sure there is an ex G/E on here who could help us out...........
OK Kilwhang, here's an attempt by one retired AGE, I'm sure the intelligent one will be along sometime;
C130 wing area
1745 sq ft
Ice 1 cubic inch = 0.03 lbs
1 sq foot of Ice = 144 blocks = 4.32 lbs (per square foot at 1" thick)
4.32 lbs x 1745 = 7538.4 lbs or 3.365 tons.
At around 3.5 tons of extra weight, with a still decent fuel load plus freight, there's no wonder your climb stopped. Possibly assisted by profile drag and a total change in the aerofoil section. Hope that's near to correct.
Don Coyote, thanks for that. I ended my time as an AGE in 94, preceding the ice patches, thus the reason for my ignorance of them.
Smudge
C130 wing area
1745 sq ft
Ice 1 cubic inch = 0.03 lbs
1 sq foot of Ice = 144 blocks = 4.32 lbs (per square foot at 1" thick)
4.32 lbs x 1745 = 7538.4 lbs or 3.365 tons.
At around 3.5 tons of extra weight, with a still decent fuel load plus freight, there's no wonder your climb stopped. Possibly assisted by profile drag and a total change in the aerofoil section. Hope that's near to correct.
Don Coyote, thanks for that. I ended my time as an AGE in 94, preceding the ice patches, thus the reason for my ignorance of them.
Smudge
Last edited by smujsmith; 1st Jun 2015 at 21:28. Reason: Spelling and a response to save extra posts.
External Tanks
Word at the time was that it was to reduce fuel consumption when bashing the circuit, but it was realised that the performance of the aircraft was so much better, that it could mislead new crews so that when they then flew with tanks attached the drop in performance could have lead to some suprises for the crews. Also the reduction in fuel consumption didn't outway the complications caused by effectively having two fleets, one long range and one short to medium.
Goose Bay
Smudge.
As I was at Goose when we got the news of the crash I must be the other G/E you refer to, as you say a very bad and sad day for all Albert especially as only the weekend before I was having a beer and roast pork butty at our daughter's school fete in Calne with the G/E.
As I was at Goose when we got the news of the crash I must be the other G/E you refer to, as you say a very bad and sad day for all Albert especially as only the weekend before I was having a beer and roast pork butty at our daughter's school fete in Calne with the G/E.
Gopher 01,
Goose. Yep ISTR you and MG there.
External tanks. It's interesting that they couldn't let the drivers airframe play with a clean airframe back then. As I remember we had to put a red sticker on the instrument panel to remind them they were driving a longer Albert.
I believe the J can be used both with and without the externals, so the thinking has changed.
Hope you are well.
Smudge
Goose. Yep ISTR you and MG there.
External tanks. It's interesting that they couldn't let the drivers airframe play with a clean airframe back then. As I remember we had to put a red sticker on the instrument panel to remind them they were driving a longer Albert.
I believe the J can be used both with and without the externals, so the thinking has changed.
Hope you are well.
Smudge
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Any ideas chaps on how we might collectively celebrate the impending 400,000th Hit on our Thread ... I guess it will need to be a 'virtual' celebration 
Coff, as Doug M seems to have age seniority on all posters 
, perhaps it should be another of his exceptionally good, but repeatable, down route stories. Followed by a communal raising of a glass or two. On the other hand, he could invite us all to his local, even Fergineer might be tempted.
Smudge
, perhaps it should be another of his exceptionally good, but repeatable, down route stories. Followed by a communal raising of a glass or two. On the other hand, he could invite us all to his local, even Fergineer might be tempted. Smudge
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The 400K Post
Fellers, Fellers Just a mo.
I'm not sure that I hold the "most aged" record being in the company of Jenkins and Willard. I certainly don't rate any exalted position amongst the erudite and knowledgeable posters on this thread.
I will happily continue to add anecdotes to the excellent forum which Coff is to be commended for Manstarting.
If a venue for a commemorative libation is considered then I think that the 5Bells in R.Wooty B. should top the list now that the LXX Sqn association has decamped to Braised Mutton. (besides, I can use my bus pass to get there)
Thank you, though, for your kind words.
Never underestimate a good creep!
I'm not sure that I hold the "most aged" record being in the company of Jenkins and Willard. I certainly don't rate any exalted position amongst the erudite and knowledgeable posters on this thread.
I will happily continue to add anecdotes to the excellent forum which Coff is to be commended for Manstarting.
If a venue for a commemorative libation is considered then I think that the 5Bells in R.Wooty B. should top the list now that the LXX Sqn association has decamped to Braised Mutton. (besides, I can use my bus pass to get there)
Thank you, though, for your kind words.
Never underestimate a good creep!