The Best Fighter In The World.............
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"Shot down", "Kill ratios" must be the RAFs best kept secret!
It must have been good fun but are you seriously saying that these games were representative of what would have happened for real?
Especially given the restrictions placed on any engagements and their limited nature, aircraft and equipment serviceability, real weapon performance V's predicted, wartime ECM and tactics, not being able to use the other sides air picture, not considering the Opfor is equally as cunning, etc.
Or are these select memories and the reality is a much more even score?
There is a difference between telling everyone how good you are and being good, see Israeli air Force
It must have been good fun but are you seriously saying that these games were representative of what would have happened for real?
Especially given the restrictions placed on any engagements and their limited nature, aircraft and equipment serviceability, real weapon performance V's predicted, wartime ECM and tactics, not being able to use the other sides air picture, not considering the Opfor is equally as cunning, etc.
Or are these select memories and the reality is a much more even score?
There is a difference between telling everyone how good you are and being good, see Israeli air Force
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Stopped laughing now...
Didn't it get relegated to a second front role during the GW defending Saudi while the F-15 took the fight to the bad guys? Why was that? Surely if the F3 was the bees knees it would have taken a more proactive role.
Tornado always struck me as a jack of all, master of none type.
Didn't it get relegated to a second front role during the GW defending Saudi while the F-15 took the fight to the bad guys? Why was that? Surely if the F3 was the bees knees it would have taken a more proactive role.
Tornado always struck me as a jack of all, master of none type.
Re: Gulf - IFF fit
Master of low level escort/sweep I would say. Leon's the expert to contribute there. Probably not far off the best for complex AD work at night either - two crew always helps there.
Master of low level escort/sweep I would say. Leon's the expert to contribute there. Probably not far off the best for complex AD work at night either - two crew always helps there.
When Iraq invaded Kuwait the Coningsby Wing was at Akrotiri on APC handover. They were sent to Saudi to stop Saddam proceeding through Kuwait into Saudi territory. The F3 at that time was not fit for purpose with a poor RADAR and no defensive aids (no self-protection jammer (SPJ), chaff or flares). The crews that arrived were on CAP within the first few hours against a far more numerous foe and 'held the fort' until the rest of the allies turned up.
Whilst chaff/flare was fitted and the RADAR vastly improved in very short order (the mods known as Stage 1+), without a SPJ the F3 could only do DCA CAP outwith the known SAM threats. The Iraqi fighters never made it to the CAPs.
The Towed RADAR decoy (TRD) SPJ was not embodied onto the F3 until 1995, even though it flew 'sausage side' for a while in Bosnia relying on chaff/flare only (as it had done in DESERT STORM). The TRD was a world beater and even the US lagged this technology on an operational fast jet.
Once fitted with chaff, flare, TRD, a refined RADAR the F3 was very good, but when fitted with a mode 4 interrogator, AMRAAM and ASRAAM it was excellent and the aircraft it always should have been. Yes it had a small wing, yes the engines didn't like going above 50,000ft unless supersonic, but it was frighteningly quick (I did 870kts at low level with weapons fitted). It should be noted that when an F3 was tasked to do roving CAPs not a single mud-mover, helo or HVAA was lost to enemy fighters. I can remember chasing a Mig23 in the southern no fly zone that was coming after AWACS or RIVET JOINT. However, he new we were onto him and he fled back over the parallel outside of our launch success zone. If I recall correctly the closest we got to him was about 20 miles - close but no cigar!
In the second Gulf War there was no tangeable air threat as the Allies had the whole IADS locked down and the Iraqis knew it. Within a couple of weeks the F3s were done even though they could have contributed to the SEAD orbat - in a far more capable way than the GR4 could. However, there was an amount of in-house politics that lead to that decision.
That was its last hurrah. The F3 was in service for over 25 years and not one was lost in combat or QRA. Furthermore, nothing else was lost whilst on its watch as well.
LJ
PS. There were some really sh!t things about the jet and we should never have bought it in the first place - again, politics got in the way of sense as usual! However, we did the best we could with what we were given hence the often quoted US General's remark!
Whilst chaff/flare was fitted and the RADAR vastly improved in very short order (the mods known as Stage 1+), without a SPJ the F3 could only do DCA CAP outwith the known SAM threats. The Iraqi fighters never made it to the CAPs.
The Towed RADAR decoy (TRD) SPJ was not embodied onto the F3 until 1995, even though it flew 'sausage side' for a while in Bosnia relying on chaff/flare only (as it had done in DESERT STORM). The TRD was a world beater and even the US lagged this technology on an operational fast jet.
Once fitted with chaff, flare, TRD, a refined RADAR the F3 was very good, but when fitted with a mode 4 interrogator, AMRAAM and ASRAAM it was excellent and the aircraft it always should have been. Yes it had a small wing, yes the engines didn't like going above 50,000ft unless supersonic, but it was frighteningly quick (I did 870kts at low level with weapons fitted). It should be noted that when an F3 was tasked to do roving CAPs not a single mud-mover, helo or HVAA was lost to enemy fighters. I can remember chasing a Mig23 in the southern no fly zone that was coming after AWACS or RIVET JOINT. However, he new we were onto him and he fled back over the parallel outside of our launch success zone. If I recall correctly the closest we got to him was about 20 miles - close but no cigar!
In the second Gulf War there was no tangeable air threat as the Allies had the whole IADS locked down and the Iraqis knew it. Within a couple of weeks the F3s were done even though they could have contributed to the SEAD orbat - in a far more capable way than the GR4 could. However, there was an amount of in-house politics that lead to that decision.
That was its last hurrah. The F3 was in service for over 25 years and not one was lost in combat or QRA. Furthermore, nothing else was lost whilst on its watch as well.
LJ
PS. There were some really sh!t things about the jet and we should never have bought it in the first place - again, politics got in the way of sense as usual! However, we did the best we could with what we were given hence the often quoted US General's remark!
TORNADO F3
Well said Leon. Amid reams of bolleaux banter, that is the first sensible piece I have read about the much-maligned and unfairly represented F3.
Funny how good people in the RAF do what they can for years with the aircraft they are given to fly. Then, when the aircraft finally mature into effective and capable machines, they are unceremoniously scrapped. The list is long.
Funny how good people in the RAF do what they can for years with the aircraft they are given to fly. Then, when the aircraft finally mature into effective and capable machines, they are unceremoniously scrapped. The list is long.
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Tornado IDS and ADV Fuselages
The ADV Tornado variant must have had significantly better aerodynamics than the IDS variant due to its longer fuselage. Also (not that I was a navigator) the cockpit was slightly further forward of the intakes so there was a better view from the back.
The question I always had was why weren't the IDS versions built with the longer fuselage. It would have also given them more internal fuel. Commonality would have also reduced the costs of building the ADV variant which I think totalled just 165 airframes.
Add in an internal IFR probe (OK it meant one 27mm cannon not two but maybe that could have been compensated with having more rounds per gun) and the drag index improves a bit more. Less drag means more speed or less power and that means more range.
I was at Honington in 1981 when there were Buccaneers and Tornados sharing the airfield. The Bucc was no slouch at low level but always subsonic. On paper the Tornado was quicker but needed reheat to go fast. As for range, it was no contest - the banana jet won hands-down, helped by its internal bomb bay and coke bottle area-ruled fuselage.....
MB
The question I always had was why weren't the IDS versions built with the longer fuselage. It would have also given them more internal fuel. Commonality would have also reduced the costs of building the ADV variant which I think totalled just 165 airframes.
Add in an internal IFR probe (OK it meant one 27mm cannon not two but maybe that could have been compensated with having more rounds per gun) and the drag index improves a bit more. Less drag means more speed or less power and that means more range.
I was at Honington in 1981 when there were Buccaneers and Tornados sharing the airfield. The Bucc was no slouch at low level but always subsonic. On paper the Tornado was quicker but needed reheat to go fast. As for range, it was no contest - the banana jet won hands-down, helped by its internal bomb bay and coke bottle area-ruled fuselage.....
MB
