Mysterious delta jet over Texas, a fortnight ago
Thread Starter
BEagle,
At my old Part 145 MRO company, around 10 years back, the other other of the business was a Part 21G and J composite facility. We had a contract with a bunch of Bedfordshire academics and boffins to build the BWB scaled drop test models as said academics had been contracted by the Boeing Phantom Works. Also we got involved indirectly with the Cambridge Uni / MIT Silent Aircraft initiative
The 'Silent' Aircraft Initiative
Back to the BWB, below my feet in my Quality Dept, these shapes were built and then shipped off back to Huntington Beach and would find their way up to the Mojave and used for a series of crash test evaluations. I do not believe they were in anyway used as airborne tests from say NASA NB-52H or any other platform, but launched like as a UAS....
Last I heard the BWB scaled models we built, had all but one or two used and made a dent in the lovely Mojave desert,
Cheers
At my old Part 145 MRO company, around 10 years back, the other other of the business was a Part 21G and J composite facility. We had a contract with a bunch of Bedfordshire academics and boffins to build the BWB scaled drop test models as said academics had been contracted by the Boeing Phantom Works. Also we got involved indirectly with the Cambridge Uni / MIT Silent Aircraft initiative
The 'Silent' Aircraft Initiative
Back to the BWB, below my feet in my Quality Dept, these shapes were built and then shipped off back to Huntington Beach and would find their way up to the Mojave and used for a series of crash test evaluations. I do not believe they were in anyway used as airborne tests from say NASA NB-52H or any other platform, but launched like as a UAS....
Last I heard the BWB scaled models we built, had all but one or two used and made a dent in the lovely Mojave desert,
Cheers
Originally Posted by ShotOne
... my money is still on the (single engined)X47B for the much more basic reason that the planform looks like it.
Where's the crank in the leading edge and the W-shaped trailing edge "boat tail" in the first pic?
Originally Posted by ShotOne
Even if some new mega plane had somehow been funded and built in super-secrecy ...
It's not as if there aren't precedents for super-secret aircraft development programmes.
Steve Douglass's credentials were mentioned earlier. To me, it seems he may have been naive and not too rigorous in the conclusions that he has drawn in the past. I've not seen anything that suggests he is a hoaxer or would fake images, though.
Originally Posted by WhiteOvies
... it says there were 3 aircraft in the formation, not 3 of these triangles.
Phantom Ray fits more than X-47B (except for the single engine...), but both those are open programmes, and only 1 of the former and 2 of the latter have been built. Or acknowledged to have been built you might well object, but then why reveal the aircraft but hide how many are built? They're demonstrators, not operational aircraft, we are told.
Also, the Phantom Ray has a one-piece wing and is therefore difficult to move from factory to test site - people would surely notice.
PS Can anybody point to definitive information on the current US rules for flying UAVs outside of Ranges or otherwise segregated airspace? In other words, if UAVs could not have been flown over Amarillo legally then it is a strike against the triangles being UAVs. If they could, well - we're none the wiser!
Edit again, to answer my own question. The relevant FAA Fact Sheet is here, from which I quote selectively but hopefully accurately:
Originally Posted by FAA
The Certificate of Authorization [for Public Use UAVs] allows an operator to use a defined block of airspace and includes special provisions unique to the proposed operation.
Because UAS technology cannot currently comply with “see and avoid” rules that apply to all aircraft, a visual observer or an accompanying “chase plane” must maintain visual contact with the UAS and serve as its “eyes” when operating outside airspace restricted from other users.
Because UAS technology cannot currently comply with “see and avoid” rules that apply to all aircraft, a visual observer or an accompanying “chase plane” must maintain visual contact with the UAS and serve as its “eyes” when operating outside airspace restricted from other users.
Last edited by hoodie; 30th Mar 2014 at 22:48. Reason: Stuff about 3 triangles & query about UAV rules in US
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Thanks for the great pic, pc9, that illustrates my point exactly. I agree my initial post only told a bit of the story, although I did elaborate in my PM to you. I still feel the contrail debate, fascinating as it was, has sent us off at rather a tangent. hoodie, fair point, it's certainly missing the "boat tail"
Quite possible it is something entirely new.
That planform does look odd; not a cranked arrow, not arcuate, no beaver tail like the B2.
I've long suspected there are a whole family of subsonic reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicles that we're unaware of.
Nothing incredibly exotic, just variations on a theme - and I wonder if this is one of them.
Look at the Sentinel, Polecat, Bird of Prey.
Developed relatively quickly, and in secrecy.
I assume that rapid prototyping, large single composite piece manufacturing and re-using existing powerplants (and other bits like landing gear etc) means that new sub or transonic manned or unmanned prototypes can be developed reasonably quickly.
History seems to show its when you start wanting to go very fast, very high, very far or combinations of all three that programs get expensive, big and unwieldy.
That planform does look odd; not a cranked arrow, not arcuate, no beaver tail like the B2.
I've long suspected there are a whole family of subsonic reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicles that we're unaware of.
Nothing incredibly exotic, just variations on a theme - and I wonder if this is one of them.
Look at the Sentinel, Polecat, Bird of Prey.
Developed relatively quickly, and in secrecy.
I assume that rapid prototyping, large single composite piece manufacturing and re-using existing powerplants (and other bits like landing gear etc) means that new sub or transonic manned or unmanned prototypes can be developed reasonably quickly.
History seems to show its when you start wanting to go very fast, very high, very far or combinations of all three that programs get expensive, big and unwieldy.
ShotOne
No they weren't. Nor were the contrails on a Nimrod formed by mixing of the exhaust gases and the wing tip vortices.
Please note that from saudipc9's 747 photo the contrails are most definitely coming from the engines - they appear well before the wing tip vortex could have mixed with jet eflux. What happens further behind the 747 is the mixing of the contrail and vortex - but the contrail is NOT caused by mixing - that just changes the shape and look.
Only that the contrails from any type are formed from the jet exhaust and would be there whether there was a wing tip vortex or not. What happens further behind the aircraft when the two do mix is an entirely different question.
And yes, you can often tell the difference between 4-jet contrails and twin jet contrails.
Now back to the mystery aircraft. Given the graininess of the picture and lack of definition, I'm still sticking with B2. Try copying and pasting the photo into something that you can zoom in on (ie Word - other word processing software is available) and zoom in to 500% - to my eye you can see the "wings" and the trailing edge saw tooth. The trailing edge definition (as shown in Willard's earlier photo) is just lost in the pixelation of this photo.
ShotOne:if we're talking about high level contrails, they are caused by the jet exhaust, specifically the water content, being mixed by wingtip vortices.
ShotOne:Yes they were, Roland.
Please note that from saudipc9's 747 photo the contrails are most definitely coming from the engines - they appear well before the wing tip vortex could have mixed with jet eflux. What happens further behind the 747 is the mixing of the contrail and vortex - but the contrail is NOT caused by mixing - that just changes the shape and look.
Are you postulating that contrails from aircraft with tail mounted engines behave fundamentally differently from others? I'd challenge you to tell those of, say, an MD80 and a 737 apart a minute after they'd passed
And yes, you can often tell the difference between 4-jet contrails and twin jet contrails.
Now back to the mystery aircraft. Given the graininess of the picture and lack of definition, I'm still sticking with B2. Try copying and pasting the photo into something that you can zoom in on (ie Word - other word processing software is available) and zoom in to 500% - to my eye you can see the "wings" and the trailing edge saw tooth. The trailing edge definition (as shown in Willard's earlier photo) is just lost in the pixelation of this photo.
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 31st Mar 2014 at 09:41.
A problems with them being B-2 is the response Douglass got from Public Affairs at Whiteman AFB (quoted at the page linked from the OP):
Now, there might be B-2s operated away from Whiteman (AFFTC is the obvious alternative), but 3 of them?
Maybe the photos are too poor, but I would still have expected to see evidence of a W trailing edge if a B-2.
From: GREENE, JENNIFER D GS-07 USAF AFGSC 509 BW/PA
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 2:00 PM
To: Sweetman, Bill
Cc: COOPER, JOHN M 1st Lt USAF AFGSC 509 BW/PA; GREENE, JENNIFER D GS-07 USAF AFGSC 509 BW/PA
Subject: Aircraft sighting
Sir,
I have spoken with our schedulers and the aircraft you saw was not a B-2 on the date and time in question.
Thank you!
Very Respectfully,
Jennifer Greene
Director of Community Relations
509th Bomb Wing Public Affairs
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 2:00 PM
To: Sweetman, Bill
Cc: COOPER, JOHN M 1st Lt USAF AFGSC 509 BW/PA; GREENE, JENNIFER D GS-07 USAF AFGSC 509 BW/PA
Subject: Aircraft sighting
Sir,
I have spoken with our schedulers and the aircraft you saw was not a B-2 on the date and time in question.
Thank you!
Very Respectfully,
Jennifer Greene
Director of Community Relations
509th Bomb Wing Public Affairs
Maybe the photos are too poor, but I would still have expected to see evidence of a W trailing edge if a B-2.
A problems with them being B-2 is the response Douglass got from Public Affairs at Whiteman AFB
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hoodie,
Given the modest resolution of the picture, and the unknown color of the underside of the boat tail, it's not impossible it's an X47. To be more sure you'd need to blur the image using the resolution response of the camera against a bright sky background, and include the effects of the uncertain elevation to the aircraft, which makes it appear shortened in the wingspan direction than if it was directly overhead, and so makes the wing sweep angle appear greater than it is.
Given the modest resolution of the picture, and the unknown color of the underside of the boat tail, it's not impossible it's an X47. To be more sure you'd need to blur the image using the resolution response of the camera against a bright sky background, and include the effects of the uncertain elevation to the aircraft, which makes it appear shortened in the wingspan direction than if it was directly overhead, and so makes the wing sweep angle appear greater than it is.
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Why are all you guys presuming it is an American aircraft? Don't you read the Iranian Press Releases?
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If, as an earlier poster seemed to suggest, this was in airspace not open to UAV's that certainly points to it not being one. In the post-wikileak age it would take impressively big cojones to flagrantly break the law in broad daylight.
Very happy to accept your word, Roland, on VC10 contrails. Not seen many lately for some reason
Very happy to accept your word, Roland, on VC10 contrails. Not seen many lately for some reason
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Alien craft or military spy plane?Alien craft or military spy plane?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rm7okJdrqk
"Published on Mar 31, 2014
Texans spotted something odd in the sky in Amarillo on March 10. Photos of the object were verified by experts as "something real," but what exactly is still not known. To try and find out whether the mysterious craft may be a new US spy plane or military jet, RT's Lindsay France spoke with the Senior International Defense Editor of Aviation Week, Bill Sweetman."
Texans spotted something odd in the sky in Amarillo on March 10. Photos of the object were verified by experts as "something real," but what exactly is still not known. To try and find out whether the mysterious craft may be a new US spy plane or military jet, RT's Lindsay France spoke with the Senior International Defense Editor of Aviation Week, Bill Sweetman."
Thread Starter
Graphic and story are not complimentary. The graphic show the payload as 463L pallets upon which cargo is shipped. It also shows 4 engines which at this size aircraft (based on weight) means roughly 100-120 pax if conventional aircraft are accurate for comparison. I don't see many airlines being interested in that in a relatively small aircraft.
I recognize this is a paper airplane and a lot of work remains but this looks like a plane designed with requirements closer to what the military would want than what the airlines would want.
I recognize this is a paper airplane and a lot of work remains but this looks like a plane designed with requirements closer to what the military would want than what the airlines would want.