LONG RANGE SAR
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HH. I really do take your point.
However, re-read Party Animal's post.
We are defaulting on this commitment (DoT-wise). That's the crime.
However, re-read Party Animal's post.
We are defaulting on this commitment (DoT-wise). That's the crime.
re that one "You may remember the F3 that had a Mayday, 1000nm north of ASI in 1997. Just made it back to ASI as the gearbox melted en-route!"
I was one of the radar operators on the MR2 for that event - when we popped up to the long range scale to look for ships - there were none in any direction!
I seem to recall the (German?) nav doing the comms on the F3 was decidedly interested in the equipment we could drop to him and our predicted loiter time during his slowly descending transit back to ASI.... We realised how warm it was getting in the F3 when he told us he could no longer write info using his chinagraph as it had melted
Luckily the F3 held together long enough to make it (and then just clear the runway - we were holding off until he was safely landed. If the F3 couldn't taxi - it was going to be bulldozed clear!!).
I was one of the radar operators on the MR2 for that event - when we popped up to the long range scale to look for ships - there were none in any direction!
I seem to recall the (German?) nav doing the comms on the F3 was decidedly interested in the equipment we could drop to him and our predicted loiter time during his slowly descending transit back to ASI.... We realised how warm it was getting in the F3 when he told us he could no longer write info using his chinagraph as it had melted
Luckily the F3 held together long enough to make it (and then just clear the runway - we were holding off until he was safely landed. If the F3 couldn't taxi - it was going to be bulldozed clear!!).
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Tower
Good info thanks - we have been briefed for years that the C130 was in Halifax, info provided from our internal resources.
I've found the link here;
Halifax Search & Rescue | Canada North America | National Defence | Canadian Armed
Good info thanks - we have been briefed for years that the C130 was in Halifax, info provided from our internal resources.
I've found the link here;
Halifax Search & Rescue | Canada North America | National Defence | Canadian Armed
Cormorant's in Gander and C130's, P3's and Cormorant's in Greenwood
Tc
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Seadrills, it was generally accepted that the fixed wing SAR could provide a quicker response, search a larger area, and enable the rescue aircraft to go direct to the scene thus maximising its time on station actually effecting a rescue.
HH, using your logic we should get rid of AD fighter ac
If the Budget Cuts keep coming.....you will succeed in doing just that!
Tourist said;
and I tend to agree with him. In a very old thread this cost of a life was discussed and an MoD paper produced that placed it at £4M per life at about 2000 prices. It was the C130 XV179 thread I think, when discussing the refusal to fit ESF.
There are many MoD projects that have had to make this decision, in recent years most of them Army/Infantry related. Try managing a programme when the beancounters are telling you to conduct annual trials for umpteen years to establish a statistically valid sample proving how many lives you'll save. While at the same time fielding questions from the same BCs as to why the programme is slipping. And trying to work out why your trails cannot be held as the same BCs have chopped your funding and there's no trials troops available anyway. A very real example by the way. If only the Service Inquiries and Coroners knew....
Sometimes best, easier and cheaper to bite the bullet and spend the money; which, by the way, we have in plenty if only MoD would stop wasting it. Which they steadfastly refuse to.
But that doesn't excuse the probability that, in this case, the Government continues to be signatory to an agreement to provide coverage some way West of Ireland. Has this obligation been formally ditched?
In other words, there is a price on life, and long range SAR doesn't even come close to making economic sense.
There are many MoD projects that have had to make this decision, in recent years most of them Army/Infantry related. Try managing a programme when the beancounters are telling you to conduct annual trials for umpteen years to establish a statistically valid sample proving how many lives you'll save. While at the same time fielding questions from the same BCs as to why the programme is slipping. And trying to work out why your trails cannot be held as the same BCs have chopped your funding and there's no trials troops available anyway. A very real example by the way. If only the Service Inquiries and Coroners knew....
Sometimes best, easier and cheaper to bite the bullet and spend the money; which, by the way, we have in plenty if only MoD would stop wasting it. Which they steadfastly refuse to.
But that doesn't excuse the probability that, in this case, the Government continues to be signatory to an agreement to provide coverage some way West of Ireland. Has this obligation been formally ditched?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Tuc, we had a penny pinching exercise back in the 70s too. My ex-leader, now at Group, was seeking views on removing the attack camera and ASR capability from the Nimrod. He asked when these had been used.
I was able to tell him how we had converted a Posssub 4 to Certsub when we saw the submerged Foxtrot on the film. Then at almost the same time another crew off his old squadron dropped both ASR and all dinghy pairs at the Fastnet race.
I was able to tell him how we had converted a Posssub 4 to Certsub when we saw the submerged Foxtrot on the film. Then at almost the same time another crew off his old squadron dropped both ASR and all dinghy pairs at the Fastnet race.
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Finally, and tangentally. I was talking to an ex Nimrod guy the other day who mentioned Royal SAR - when did the RAF stop doing that task?
we should get rid of AD fighter ac. They have not been used in anger for over 30 years whilst just about every other ac in the RAF inventory has
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I don't necessarily hold with some of the suggestions that some of this long range SAR capability comes at additional cost.
not that much difference between a submarine requiring assistance or an airliner down if there was chance of any survivors.
see the report in the Torygraph from last month.
Elite Navy rescue team always on call to help submariners - Telegraph
These folks also have their own web page (bit old)
Submarine Parachute Assistance Group
I think they may have some bigger boats these days.
If Art had put the beast down further out and not within reach of rotary I am sure he would have been grateful for these guys help.
not that much difference between a submarine requiring assistance or an airliner down if there was chance of any survivors.
see the report in the Torygraph from last month.
Elite Navy rescue team always on call to help submariners - Telegraph
These folks also have their own web page (bit old)
Submarine Parachute Assistance Group
I think they may have some bigger boats these days.
If Art had put the beast down further out and not within reach of rotary I am sure he would have been grateful for these guys help.
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Seadrills, it was generally accepted that the fixed wing SAR could provide a quicker response, search a larger area, and enable the rescue aircraft to go direct to the scene thus maximising its time on station actually effecting a rescue.
I feel some of you maybe missing the point of what a Nimrod bought to the SAR mission that a C130 or any other presently available UK asset lacks.
In my 30 odd years, i think i dropped ASR sets on less than a handful of occasions.
What was much more important was the relatively quick flying time of the aircraft, to reach a datum before the Seaking, perform a search and vector in the helicopter, who at PLE, did the lift and headed straight home, At max range he doesn't have time to search.
Also, the Nimrod with a trained 12 man crew , (large disasters practiced in the simulator), 2 HF boxes, 4 V/UHF boxes and an FM radio, had the ability to control multiple assets and this is where the Nimrod shone. Alexander Keiland and piper alpha being two incidents that come to mind. With 10 helicopters in the area, multiple ships, the coastguard and the RCC to talk to, the mission could just not be done without the endurance, sensors, radios and crew size that the Nimrod provided.
Dropping an ASR was just one small part of the mission.
Of course, the SAR crew were also on stand by for other missions, mostly covert, that came up at very short notice but that was a bonus of having such a capable and multi role aircraft available on one hour stand by. I probably launched on more Ops missions rather than SAR missions while holding SAR.
In my 30 odd years, i think i dropped ASR sets on less than a handful of occasions.
What was much more important was the relatively quick flying time of the aircraft, to reach a datum before the Seaking, perform a search and vector in the helicopter, who at PLE, did the lift and headed straight home, At max range he doesn't have time to search.
Also, the Nimrod with a trained 12 man crew , (large disasters practiced in the simulator), 2 HF boxes, 4 V/UHF boxes and an FM radio, had the ability to control multiple assets and this is where the Nimrod shone. Alexander Keiland and piper alpha being two incidents that come to mind. With 10 helicopters in the area, multiple ships, the coastguard and the RCC to talk to, the mission could just not be done without the endurance, sensors, radios and crew size that the Nimrod provided.
Dropping an ASR was just one small part of the mission.
Of course, the SAR crew were also on stand by for other missions, mostly covert, that came up at very short notice but that was a bonus of having such a capable and multi role aircraft available on one hour stand by. I probably launched on more Ops missions rather than SAR missions while holding SAR.
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Also, the Nimrod with a trained 12 man crew
Ahh wait a minute, you said trained - obviously that doesn't include the AEO who was merely there to keep the glare off the Tac screen.
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Ahh wait a minute, you said trained - obviously that doesn't include the AEO who was merely there to keep the glare off the Tac screen.
AEO: "Go ahead Paddle Switch."
The old ones are the best.
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1771delete said
Spot on 1771!!! I totally agree with you. It is the ability to co-ordinate a large scale and complex tactical situation which would be beyond the capabilities of most other non MPA aircraft. Dropping an ASR is the easy part of SAR, it is the bit leading up to it which is difficult.
I feel some of you maybe missing the point of what a Nimrod bought to the SAR mission
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I believe the thought is that the E3 would co ordinate a big SAR operation. How often they actual rehearse this complex task and understand the maritime environment and SAR/ Coastguard organisation is debatable. Also the capabilities of the asserts they would be 'controlling'.
We used to practise the flying skills regularly. Complete SAR simulator exercises and do it for real regularly.
Nuff said.
We used to practise the flying skills regularly. Complete SAR simulator exercises and do it for real regularly.
Nuff said.
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I don't really think the "nobody can do it like we did" argument works.
If it's a role the E3 is expected to do, and I don't know that it is, then they will be practising it in the sim regularly. Also the kipper fleet did do top cover reasonably regularly for single helo sar rescues it didnt however do the large scale rescue with multi agencies very often at all, thankfully. So although it was practiced in the sim, the vast majority of crews had no "Real" experience of it. I see no reason at all why an E3 couldn't perform that role.
If it's a role the E3 is expected to do, and I don't know that it is, then they will be practising it in the sim regularly. Also the kipper fleet did do top cover reasonably regularly for single helo sar rescues it didnt however do the large scale rescue with multi agencies very often at all, thankfully. So although it was practiced in the sim, the vast majority of crews had no "Real" experience of it. I see no reason at all why an E3 couldn't perform that role.
Two RAAF AP-3C's heading right now to the Malaysian B777 crash area for SAR ops
RNZAF P3 not far behind .....
RNZAF P3 not far behind .....
Long range SAR is a good thing. The AO is not always predictable..