LONG RANGE SAR
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How many survivable crashes are there in mid-ocean?
In say the last 30 years??
how much will it cost to be able to get a helicopter or a flying boat to them (a Nimrod isn't an awful lot of help if you are in the water as you still need a slow boat to come and pick you up
Our elders and betters have decided we don't need/can't afford such capacity and I think they are correct
In say the last 30 years??
how much will it cost to be able to get a helicopter or a flying boat to them (a Nimrod isn't an awful lot of help if you are in the water as you still need a slow boat to come and pick you up
Our elders and betters have decided we don't need/can't afford such capacity and I think they are correct
If I may interject with a view from the rotary wing side. Pave Hawks relocated down here due to withdrawal from Kelfavik , that the only SAR assets available up there were and now a pair do AS332L1 and As365N of the Icelandic Coastguard. (iIRc an a/c crashed?).
Beyond that the nearest and dearest SAR asset probably at Stornoway and further west is of course at Halifax.
Coverage wise and response time / time on station for that part of the North Atlantic does not appear ideal at a glance.
Hypothetically (assuming there was no economic crisis , abundance of resources and more work for our shipyards) if there was a SAR framework similar to the the Jigsaw on the North Sea, with say couple of dozen rig type platforms with S-92 / EC225 types spread out across what would be termed as the more vulnerable parts of the Atlantic in particular where the transatlantic routes were / major shipping lanes.
The other idea which comes into my head w.r.t to the MPA problem would be to have a STOL platform based (preferably with flattop crews and those with CV experience ) on an old aircraft carrier or two operated by a commercial company purely for SAR to offset the costs to sail up and down the Atlantic. Oh and of course have rotary wing assets aboard.
Any thoughts here ?
Beyond that the nearest and dearest SAR asset probably at Stornoway and further west is of course at Halifax.
Coverage wise and response time / time on station for that part of the North Atlantic does not appear ideal at a glance.
Hypothetically (assuming there was no economic crisis , abundance of resources and more work for our shipyards) if there was a SAR framework similar to the the Jigsaw on the North Sea, with say couple of dozen rig type platforms with S-92 / EC225 types spread out across what would be termed as the more vulnerable parts of the Atlantic in particular where the transatlantic routes were / major shipping lanes.
The other idea which comes into my head w.r.t to the MPA problem would be to have a STOL platform based (preferably with flattop crews and those with CV experience ) on an old aircraft carrier or two operated by a commercial company purely for SAR to offset the costs to sail up and down the Atlantic. Oh and of course have rotary wing assets aboard.
Any thoughts here ?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
At Mountbatten our co-pilot, deputed to rescue the unconscious body was totally incapacitated once we got him in the MS dinghy. I had immersion gloves and retained use of my fingers for about the half hour.
I don't know if you realised but from East Anglia to Loring in winter there was more chance of landing in arctic conditions rather than maritime.
My earlier point however was not aimed at trails but QRA. An ASR drop, even if the ejectee could not reach and board, would make a better visual marker than a SS.
I am a huge fan of MPA for conducting certain tasks, but I don't think we are being credible when we think of long range SAR for crashed aircraft as one of them. The chances of anyone surviving such an incident are close to zero, and even if they did it would be unlikely they'd survive long enough in any poor weather long enough for the aircraft to drop a liferaft - personally I doubt they'd survive the longer exposure needed for a recovery vessel to reach them.
Yes we can not send someone out to find the wreckage, but given how rarely aircraft go down in the north atlantic these days, I struggle to justify retaining an ability to tell someone a few hours faster than would otherwise be the case the blatantly obvious statement that their loved one is dead. Sorry to sound blunt but that is what it boils down to.
Finally, and tangentally. I was talking to an ex Nimrod guy the other day who mentioned Royal SAR - when did the RAF stop doing that task?
Yes we can not send someone out to find the wreckage, but given how rarely aircraft go down in the north atlantic these days, I struggle to justify retaining an ability to tell someone a few hours faster than would otherwise be the case the blatantly obvious statement that their loved one is dead. Sorry to sound blunt but that is what it boils down to.
Finally, and tangentally. I was talking to an ex Nimrod guy the other day who mentioned Royal SAR - when did the RAF stop doing that task?
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There is an EH101 Cormorant Helo on SAR Standby at Gander Newfoundland on 30 minute alert 365 24/7. And the SAR standby C130's on this side are in Greenwood, NS not Halifax, there are alos P3's there that are SAR tasked as needed.
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Tower
Good info thanks - we have been briefed for years that the C130 was in Halifax, info provided from our internal resources.
I've found the link here;
Halifax Search & Rescue | Canada North America | National Defence | Canadian Armed Forces
Is this correct still?
Good info thanks - we have been briefed for years that the C130 was in Halifax, info provided from our internal resources.
I've found the link here;
Halifax Search & Rescue | Canada North America | National Defence | Canadian Armed Forces
Is this correct still?
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You still have to pick them up....
Loads of conjecture and of course there is always the "what if" or "but perhaps"
At the end of the day there is always the chance that an Art Stacey of the heavy airline brigade will pull off a blinder and make the Ex 2 engined....now glider on an ETOPS route land on water....
Personally lets hope boats can get to it, give the people some chance at least. Locating it? Of course the lack of any MRT assets for our part of the Atlantic is has has been said...well, damn near criminal.
Personally I remember getting as far as 14 1/2 W in a Sea King, without the Nimrod types (and their DCS consuming contest en route) our 12 minutes on scene would never have been enough to find the B---dy Spanish Trawler in the first place since he was 18 miles from the datum we were given. Also thanks to all the crew working on Daltons with wind applied etc our route back to Glasgow down wind rather than else where was a great confidence boost that our sums were right........and that was including an outbound refuel in Benbecula.....
Truth is we have to hope if it ever happens we really do pull a miracle out of the almost empty bag we now seem to be holding.....
At the end of the day there is always the chance that an Art Stacey of the heavy airline brigade will pull off a blinder and make the Ex 2 engined....now glider on an ETOPS route land on water....
Personally lets hope boats can get to it, give the people some chance at least. Locating it? Of course the lack of any MRT assets for our part of the Atlantic is has has been said...well, damn near criminal.
Personally I remember getting as far as 14 1/2 W in a Sea King, without the Nimrod types (and their DCS consuming contest en route) our 12 minutes on scene would never have been enough to find the B---dy Spanish Trawler in the first place since he was 18 miles from the datum we were given. Also thanks to all the crew working on Daltons with wind applied etc our route back to Glasgow down wind rather than else where was a great confidence boost that our sums were right........and that was including an outbound refuel in Benbecula.....
Truth is we have to hope if it ever happens we really do pull a miracle out of the almost empty bag we now seem to be holding.....
MV Irving Forest
If you want to see what an MPA can do to assist in a rescue at sea, in fact did do, read the MAIB report on the sinking of the Irving Forest at 28 west.
The report says "... the arrival of the aircraft and the accuracy of the life-raft drop was crucial in saving the lives of the 2nd Engineer's wife, the Chief Officer and a seaman who had all been swept overboard ..."
I have the photos but can't figure out how to post them ...
It is a team game - or was - aircraft and ships working together to help others.
I don't give a fig who thinks otherwise ...
The report says "... the arrival of the aircraft and the accuracy of the life-raft drop was crucial in saving the lives of the 2nd Engineer's wife, the Chief Officer and a seaman who had all been swept overboard ..."
I have the photos but can't figure out how to post them ...
It is a team game - or was - aircraft and ships working together to help others.
I don't give a fig who thinks otherwise ...
IRVING FOREST had been listing for days and so the Grimrod had plenty of time to get there and sit there. Also the people swept over the side were in immersion survival suits - that bought them prescious time. MPA's loitering over sinking ships is a completely different game than aircraft in distress. For an airliner, unless you're going to shadow every single one across on the NATS then you will be dropping ASRA to corpses.
Please do not think I am criticising your fantastic work during the IRVING FOREST disaster - I am not. It's just that I do not believe that an MPA is much use for airliner's coming down (which this thread is all about).
LJ
Please do not think I am criticising your fantastic work during the IRVING FOREST disaster - I am not. It's just that I do not believe that an MPA is much use for airliner's coming down (which this thread is all about).
LJ
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Given the right conditions there is indeed a slight chance of post-crash survival. There was the woman who survived the crash off the African coast. The Potomac crash is another case of a successful ditching.
Jimlad is correct in stating that the probability of a ditching is vanishingly small and that the cost of maintaining a long range search capability is huge. The answer therefore appears to be one of cost-benefit economics.
The military task (trails) is not what it was; the civilian risk is low; the value of a human life therefore is deemed less than the cost of maintaining SAR cover.
The prime purpose of the fixed-wing SAR platform was search. The prime purpose of the RW platform was rescue. We could then make a similar argument to disband the military RW SAR role for the same reasons.
Oh, we are
Jimlad is correct in stating that the probability of a ditching is vanishingly small and that the cost of maintaining a long range search capability is huge. The answer therefore appears to be one of cost-benefit economics.
The military task (trails) is not what it was; the civilian risk is low; the value of a human life therefore is deemed less than the cost of maintaining SAR cover.
The prime purpose of the fixed-wing SAR platform was search. The prime purpose of the RW platform was rescue. We could then make a similar argument to disband the military RW SAR role for the same reasons.
Oh, we are
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Sadly, ships are about the only means of achieving long-range SAR within the UK SAR Region these days. All ocean going ships are required to render assistance under SOLAS (Safety of life at Sea Convention 1974) and the International Convention on Maritme SAR. This of course depends on a ship happening to be in the right area at the right time. Now the bad news - very few ships have any means of launching a rescue craft or have hatches near the waterline. The 'S' in SAR might be very loosely covered but the 'R' is extremely unlikely 
KMAGYOYO (Kiss my ass George, you're on your own!!)
KMAGYOYO (Kiss my ass George, you're on your own!!)
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Given the right conditions there is indeed a slight chance of post-crash survival. There was the woman who survived the crash off the African coast. The Potomac crash is another case of a successful ditching.
Jimlad is correct in stating that the probability of a ditching is vanishingly small and that the cost of maintaining a long range search capability is huge. The answer therefore appears to be one of cost-benefit economics.
The military task (trails) is not what it was; the civilian risk is low; the value of a human life therefore is deemed less than the cost of maintaining SAR cover.
The prime purpose of the fixed-wing SAR platform was search. The prime purpose of the RW platform was rescue. We could then make a similar argument to disband the military RW SAR role for the same reasons.
Oh, we are
Jimlad is correct in stating that the probability of a ditching is vanishingly small and that the cost of maintaining a long range search capability is huge. The answer therefore appears to be one of cost-benefit economics.
The military task (trails) is not what it was; the civilian risk is low; the value of a human life therefore is deemed less than the cost of maintaining SAR cover.
The prime purpose of the fixed-wing SAR platform was search. The prime purpose of the RW platform was rescue. We could then make a similar argument to disband the military RW SAR role for the same reasons.
Oh, we are
Military SAR will remain a core capability of RN helicopter crews.
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Its not a very good scenario to be honest, anybody lucky enough to survive said crash would certainly be dead by the time even the fastest MPA could arrive on scene.
Estimates for a fit, uninjured person wearing a fully functioning and undamaged immersion suit in the North Atlantic are measured in minutes not hours, what chance of survival does a likely injured unprotected person or persons have?
None!
Estimates for a fit, uninjured person wearing a fully functioning and undamaged immersion suit in the North Atlantic are measured in minutes not hours, what chance of survival does a likely injured unprotected person or persons have?
None!
Many of the RAAF missions are looking for boats lost at sea or illegal aliens and the distances here are enormous compared to the UK environment . The find bit is nearly as important as the rescue bit as in the current SAR near Vietnam . We realty need to locate the wreckage and if possible establish what happened otherwise on your next jaunt across the pond on BA you could have the same experience !
I may be wrong but I believe that dealing with non mil SAR out to 30 West belongs to the Dept for Transport. Therefore, it is their problem if they do not have the necessary resources and nothing to do with MOD.
Oh, and one for Leon. Nimrod topcover for SAR trails was all about time. Had you banged out of your F3 on the way from ASI to MPA, which incidentally is nowhere near any shipping lanes, an MR2 would have followed you down, marked your on-top very quickly and dropped ASRA kit to give you a much better chance of survival for the number of days spent bobbing around the Southern Ocean (protection,location,water, edible candles, lots of PLB capability, fishing kit etc.) Using gas from the tanker and the fantastic Searchwater radar, it would then have searched for the nearest vessel to come and pick you up. All this probably happening before news of your ejection had been reacted to by the responsible SAR RCC. You may remember the F3 that had a Mayday, 1000nm north of ASI in 1997. Just made it back to ASI as the gearbox melted en-route!
Oh, and one for Leon. Nimrod topcover for SAR trails was all about time. Had you banged out of your F3 on the way from ASI to MPA, which incidentally is nowhere near any shipping lanes, an MR2 would have followed you down, marked your on-top very quickly and dropped ASRA kit to give you a much better chance of survival for the number of days spent bobbing around the Southern Ocean (protection,location,water, edible candles, lots of PLB capability, fishing kit etc.) Using gas from the tanker and the fantastic Searchwater radar, it would then have searched for the nearest vessel to come and pick you up. All this probably happening before news of your ejection had been reacted to by the responsible SAR RCC. You may remember the F3 that had a Mayday, 1000nm north of ASI in 1997. Just made it back to ASI as the gearbox melted en-route!
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Also,LJ, you are talking about 'just giving up'. If you are (one is) comfortable with telling families and the nation in general "we don't know what happened or where it is, you'll just have to wait a few days until a ship gets there" then that's fine.
Equally, what if a dead survivor were found in an airliner slideraft after a few days?
Equally, what if a dead survivor were found in an airliner slideraft after a few days?
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People have to be realistic about this and do a reasonable cost benefit analysis.
The simple fact is that long range fixed wing SAR assets are a stupid waste of money if the SAR capability is anything other than a fortunate add on to a military capability for example the Nimrod.
In medicine, NICE makes judgements as to whether the cost of the medicine/operation is worth it.
In other words, there is a price on life, and long range SAR doesn't even come close to making economic sense. If you want to save lives, use the same money and build hospitals and you would save an order of magnitude more lives.
Incidentally, rotary SAR is also silly for the same reasons, but not quite as bad.
The simple fact is that long range fixed wing SAR assets are a stupid waste of money if the SAR capability is anything other than a fortunate add on to a military capability for example the Nimrod.
In medicine, NICE makes judgements as to whether the cost of the medicine/operation is worth it.
In other words, there is a price on life, and long range SAR doesn't even come close to making economic sense. If you want to save lives, use the same money and build hospitals and you would save an order of magnitude more lives.
Incidentally, rotary SAR is also silly for the same reasons, but not quite as bad.
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All good arguments but what about the SAR cover the Aussies give to all the yacht racing in the Southern Ocean? I know they were getting a bit fed up at the number of 'Bullimores' they had to pull out of the sea but it still goes on and they still rescue people. And what about Mountain Rescue Teams? Unfunded by government in the UK but tirelessly going out to rescue lost souls 'enjoying themselves' in the hills? Do we just abandon people in the hills?
What do we provide SAR cover for and what not? I would suggest a basic cover of our sea areas is not unreasonable - people don't make a cost benefit risk analysis when they buy an airline ticket, they just go!!
SAR does airliners,ships,yachts,military,oil rigs (think airborne co-ordination for Piper Alpha) and lots more besides. A C130 can search and drop liferafts but probably doesn't (I don't know) have as comprehensive suite of sensors or comms to co-ordinate a large task. Being 'on the spot' for co-ordination is invaluable and as an argument is being translated to closure of HM Coastguard Stations at the moment - loss of local knowledge etc.
The reality of airliners is that survivability of a ditching is low but some may survive and if dropping ASRA kit to them gives them a chance until a ship or helo arrives, then the mission is accomplished. Nothing gets there in anything like reasonable time with a fighting chance of searching for and locating survivors or wreckage like a LRMPA.
What do we provide SAR cover for and what not? I would suggest a basic cover of our sea areas is not unreasonable - people don't make a cost benefit risk analysis when they buy an airline ticket, they just go!!
SAR does airliners,ships,yachts,military,oil rigs (think airborne co-ordination for Piper Alpha) and lots more besides. A C130 can search and drop liferafts but probably doesn't (I don't know) have as comprehensive suite of sensors or comms to co-ordinate a large task. Being 'on the spot' for co-ordination is invaluable and as an argument is being translated to closure of HM Coastguard Stations at the moment - loss of local knowledge etc.
The reality of airliners is that survivability of a ditching is low but some may survive and if dropping ASRA kit to them gives them a chance until a ship or helo arrives, then the mission is accomplished. Nothing gets there in anything like reasonable time with a fighting chance of searching for and locating survivors or wreckage like a LRMPA.
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"Ah. More wonderful insight into "the world" by Heathrow Harry. How I've missed it...."
Betty you may not like it but people have to carry out cost benefit analysis
spending hundreds of millions of dollars for a capability required once in over 30 years just isn't going to happen
I'm always willing to help you readjust to the outside world from whatever bubble you are in
Betty you may not like it but people have to carry out cost benefit analysis
spending hundreds of millions of dollars for a capability required once in over 30 years just isn't going to happen
I'm always willing to help you readjust to the outside world from whatever bubble you are in