Air Combat Drones
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Air Combat Drones
The link below covers an interesting article that appeared in "Popular Science" earlier this month mentioning that the US DARPA Organisation (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) is to look at the use of Drones/UAV's in the Air-to-Air combat role. The article also suggests a "mixed" use of such technology with manned aircraft.
DARPA : Teaching Drones to Fight Aircraft
Just setting aside for a moment the technical challenges that will need to be overcome ... it might be interesting to speculate on what a future Air Combat Drone/UAV deployed capability might look like.
For example ... would it be best to control Air Combat Drones/UAV's from the ground (as with current Reconnaissance or Ordnance delivery UAV's), or controlled from the air by something like a Sentry ... or is it conceivable that a Fighter Pilot could even have Drones/UAV's as Wingmen that could then be deployed in a "fight"?
I suspect there will be some very experienced members who might say "it will never happen" ... but looking at the way military technology is progressing in this field ... it may not be too farfetched.
Coff.
DARPA : Teaching Drones to Fight Aircraft
Just setting aside for a moment the technical challenges that will need to be overcome ... it might be interesting to speculate on what a future Air Combat Drone/UAV deployed capability might look like.
For example ... would it be best to control Air Combat Drones/UAV's from the ground (as with current Reconnaissance or Ordnance delivery UAV's), or controlled from the air by something like a Sentry ... or is it conceivable that a Fighter Pilot could even have Drones/UAV's as Wingmen that could then be deployed in a "fight"?
I suspect there will be some very experienced members who might say "it will never happen" ... but looking at the way military technology is progressing in this field ... it may not be too farfetched.
Coff.
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Semi autonomous drones are well within current technology.
Tell them what is friendly and what is unfriendly within designated airspace.
Give them a sensor suite.
Existing technology weapons with full envelope data in the computer.
Software for air combat manoeuvring.
Predictive algorithms.
Rules of engagement.
Tactical priorities.
20G airframe.
Then you could mix and match them safely with manned aircraft.
Tell them what is friendly and what is unfriendly within designated airspace.
Give them a sensor suite.
Existing technology weapons with full envelope data in the computer.
Software for air combat manoeuvring.
Predictive algorithms.
Rules of engagement.
Tactical priorities.
20G airframe.
Then you could mix and match them safely with manned aircraft.
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Command delay. With a satellite link time-of-flight delay at the 0.2s level, there's going to have to be some considerable degree of autonomy. Plus, the satellite link can break for certain periods, and could be susceptible to concerted jamming.
Direct radio control via relay aircraft would be quicker.
Who wants to explain to the judge why the airliner was bumped by the intercepting drone having a senior moment?
Direct radio control via relay aircraft would be quicker.
Who wants to explain to the judge why the airliner was bumped by the intercepting drone having a senior moment?
Sounds like a Dale Brown techo novel coming true.
From ‘Foyle’s War’; “Why did you survive when others did not, you must have been good?”
“No they (compatriots) were good; they used the conventional tactics which were countered with conventional response. I survived because I didn’t follow the rules and the opposition did not know what to expect.”
What drone will be able to think and act like that?
“No they (compatriots) were good; they used the conventional tactics which were countered with conventional response. I survived because I didn’t follow the rules and the opposition did not know what to expect.”
What drone will be able to think and act like that?
Knucky of the future, thy wingman shall be autonomous and be able to pull 20G.
"Watch my six" will be a button push away, or even a voice recognised command.
And the only thing that I think will be able to defeat such a UCAV will be a minaturised fast jet mounted HELLADS...
"Watch my six" will be a button push away, or even a voice recognised command.
And the only thing that I think will be able to defeat such a UCAV will be a minaturised fast jet mounted HELLADS...
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if you look at the required specs, I'd say we'll be able to compare prices with the F-35 and see how much a pilot is worth. I'm guessing you can add another $200 mill for the luxury of being pilotless....
p.s which is only to say, just because it 'can' be done doesn't necessarily mean it should be done..
p.s which is only to say, just because it 'can' be done doesn't necessarily mean it should be done..
Against unsophisticated opposition AD pilots in an environment where who is who is reasonably known, then it can probably be done in 10 years.
I think having a drone as a wingman should be the first step - human leader allocates targets.
I think having a drone as a wingman should be the first step - human leader allocates targets.
I wonder if it is actually being tested as we speak.
Watch this video from March 03.
Bunch of tomahawks flying in close formation.
If that could happen then, what's possible a decade later?
Watch this video from March 03.
Bunch of tomahawks flying in close formation.
If that could happen then, what's possible a decade later?
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Was always impressed by that piece of video. Just showed the capabilities of the Cruise Missile even back then.
I read that they flew very close to the border of some countries because the terrain in a lot of other parts was so plain it made it hard to navigate ?
I read that they flew very close to the border of some countries because the terrain in a lot of other parts was so plain it made it hard to navigate ?
Was thinking about what UCAVs could really look like in reality.
Imagine an F35, with a 4 ship formation of UCAVs off his wingtip, flying in a perfect diamond formation each no more than a few metres apart.
Bogeys sighted - the pilot gives the Tally Ho command, and they snap out of formation in four different directions at rates of climb, negative G pushovers or rates of turn that seem like something out of a science fiction movie.
It's a chilling thought.
Imagine an F35, with a 4 ship formation of UCAVs off his wingtip, flying in a perfect diamond formation each no more than a few metres apart.
Bogeys sighted - the pilot gives the Tally Ho command, and they snap out of formation in four different directions at rates of climb, negative G pushovers or rates of turn that seem like something out of a science fiction movie.
It's a chilling thought.
Yes - exactly.
I've often wondered what kind of manned aircraft defence could kill an unmanned adversary that can easily tolerate +/-20g maneuverability and the very low wing loadings that some of these UCAV designs appear likely to have in future.
Probably only a laser, a minaturised aircraft mounted version of this, or some kind of ventral or dorsal self targeting gun turret, with the ability to move and train at extreme speed - coupled with a prodigious rate of fire - a sort of airborne close-in weapon system.
Maybe people who know more about ACM than I do can contribute... I assume the issue is how quickly a UCAV would be able to change its vector?
I've often wondered what kind of manned aircraft defence could kill an unmanned adversary that can easily tolerate +/-20g maneuverability and the very low wing loadings that some of these UCAV designs appear likely to have in future.
Probably only a laser, a minaturised aircraft mounted version of this, or some kind of ventral or dorsal self targeting gun turret, with the ability to move and train at extreme speed - coupled with a prodigious rate of fire - a sort of airborne close-in weapon system.
Maybe people who know more about ACM than I do can contribute... I assume the issue is how quickly a UCAV would be able to change its vector?
Last edited by tartare; 27th Feb 2014 at 05:17.
We spend vast amounts on expensive aircraft with radar and DASS suites and yet they are limited in combat by the numbers of missiles they carry. The first step will be a "drone" which follows the sensor platform and carries another 8-12 missiles, targeted by the piloted main platform....probably.
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Thanks for everyones contribution ... it's certainly interesting to speculate on what might constitute a future viable Air Combat Drone capability. But as mentioned by Safetypee, the human brain remains the most agile and flexible CPU ever developed ... and will remain so for a very long time to come ... albeit that it is contained within a "package" that is now nearing the upper end of safe G tolerance. With the human body probably not safely withstanding much above -3/+9G this may be one of the primary drivers in progressing AC Drone solutions?
The Drone "Wingman" approach would bring a whole set of new challenges I guess ... not least ... how would you launch in a QRA scenario ... let alone how do you overcome command and control latency issues as some have highlighted above.
Definitely a "watch this space topic" I think ...
The Drone "Wingman" approach would bring a whole set of new challenges I guess ... not least ... how would you launch in a QRA scenario ... let alone how do you overcome command and control latency issues as some have highlighted above.
Definitely a "watch this space topic" I think ...
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Those lasers are heavy and expensive, and will probably remain so.
They also need very fancy optics to ensure they concentrate on the target, and the lighter and less powerful they are, the more that's true.
To achieve 20g without stopping dead there has to be a lot of power, and that's expensive. Drones are relatively cheap because they cruise and loiter stealthily with light simple engines - if you want them to run like an unmanned F22 then the cost will go up.
Eyes also gather a lot of information, and it's going to be difficult to provide that remotely without a big and complex set of cameras that might cost more than the career training and salary of the person they're replacing (who still needs to be paid to be somewhere on the ground).
They also need very fancy optics to ensure they concentrate on the target, and the lighter and less powerful they are, the more that's true.
To achieve 20g without stopping dead there has to be a lot of power, and that's expensive. Drones are relatively cheap because they cruise and loiter stealthily with light simple engines - if you want them to run like an unmanned F22 then the cost will go up.
Eyes also gather a lot of information, and it's going to be difficult to provide that remotely without a big and complex set of cameras that might cost more than the career training and salary of the person they're replacing (who still needs to be paid to be somewhere on the ground).
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How about non stealth drones to draw out the enemy, present a bigger target than they actually are and then when close to being engaged, stealth aircraft used to combat the enemy without them knowing ?
Possible loss of a drone for a higher success rate and low probability of crew loss ?
Possible loss of a drone for a higher success rate and low probability of crew loss ?