Air Combat Drones
Blain - you think so?
I'm not so sure.
Some of the brightest minds in the `states are making sure that the laser problems are all solveable.
100 - 150kw class is what they're targeting - and HELLADS is roadmapped to be aircraft mounted - maximum onboard space ocuupiued to be no more than 2 cubic m.
In fact several elements of JSF design are oriented towards integration of a high powered laser - power is not an issue; you take it off the engine; cooling is in fact one of the biggest practical problems, and you use fuel as the heat sink.
Interestingly, one of the real challenges they face is dealing with the optical distortions introduced by airflow around the laser turret. Adaptive optics continue to progress at a great rate, driven by IMINT needs for spy satellites and high altitude airborne platforms.
Some more detail here on when a laser might appear on the JSF.
Admittedly a 2007 paper, but even then the conclusion? A HEL laser could be fieldable by 2025.
R/e high G turns - all you have to do is exceed 9G, at which point the poor meat-pilot you're fighting succumbs to G-LOC...?
No doubt somewhere in the USAF or at Lockheed Martin a young accolyte of John Boyd is looking at drag polar charts for planned UCAVs and thinking about just these things.
I'm not so sure.
Some of the brightest minds in the `states are making sure that the laser problems are all solveable.
100 - 150kw class is what they're targeting - and HELLADS is roadmapped to be aircraft mounted - maximum onboard space ocuupiued to be no more than 2 cubic m.
In fact several elements of JSF design are oriented towards integration of a high powered laser - power is not an issue; you take it off the engine; cooling is in fact one of the biggest practical problems, and you use fuel as the heat sink.
Interestingly, one of the real challenges they face is dealing with the optical distortions introduced by airflow around the laser turret. Adaptive optics continue to progress at a great rate, driven by IMINT needs for spy satellites and high altitude airborne platforms.
Some more detail here on when a laser might appear on the JSF.
Admittedly a 2007 paper, but even then the conclusion? A HEL laser could be fieldable by 2025.
R/e high G turns - all you have to do is exceed 9G, at which point the poor meat-pilot you're fighting succumbs to G-LOC...?
No doubt somewhere in the USAF or at Lockheed Martin a young accolyte of John Boyd is looking at drag polar charts for planned UCAVs and thinking about just these things.
Last edited by tartare; 27th Feb 2014 at 22:19.
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There are good reasons that the 747 airborne laser is no longer.
Maybe it'll be viable at some point. Certainly seems unlikely before 2025.
Beyond 9g is difficult for people to deal with, but matters have gotten out of hand if that's necessary for success.
Maybe it'll be viable at some point. Certainly seems unlikely before 2025.
Beyond 9g is difficult for people to deal with, but matters have gotten out of hand if that's necessary for success.
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Originally Posted by awblain
There are good reasons that the 747 airborne laser is no longer.
The size that this forces meant a large aircraft to carry it, but newer laser technology provides the same power in a much smaller & lighter package.
The same goes for the mechanical components - and all of this also applies for the aiming system, power generator, etc.
Additionally, it was an ABM program, meaning it required a longer-range fire-control system, a longer-range focusing system, higher power to overcome atmospheric attenuation of the beam's power, and so on.
The one being designed to fit inside the lift-fan space on a modified F-35B airframe is intended for much closer range, with the attendant reductions in required power, capability of the tracking & aiming system, and so on.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://dtdnnp-01.darpa.mil/news-events/2019-05-08
DARPA: Training AI to Win a Dogfight
“.........The ACE program will train AI in the rules of aerial dogfighting similar to how new fighter pilots are taught, starting with basic fighter maneuvers in simple, one-on-one scenarios. While highly nonlinear in behavior, dogfights have a clearly defined objective, measureable outcome, and the inherent physical limitations of aircraft dynamics, making them a good test case for advanced tactical automation. Like human pilot combat training, the AI performance expansion will be closely monitored by fighter instructor pilots in the autonomous aircraft, which will help co-evolve tactics with the technology. These subject matter experts will play a key role throughout the program.
“Only after human pilots are confident that the AI algorithms are trustworthy in handling bounded, transparent and predictable behaviors will the aerial engagement scenarios increase in difficulty and realism,” Javorsek said. “Following virtual testing, we plan to demonstrate the dogfighting algorithms on sub-scale aircraft leading ultimately to live, full-scale manned-unmanned team dogfighting with operationally representative aircraft.”
DARPA seeks a broad spectrum of potential proposers for each area of study, including small companies and academics with little previous experience with the Defense Department. To that end, before Phase 1 of the program begins, DARPA will sponsor a stand-alone, limited-scope effort focused on the first technical area: automating individual tactical behavior for one-on-one dogfights. Called the “AlphaDogfight Trials,” this initial solicitation will be issued by AFWERX, an Air Force innovation catalyst with the mission of finding novel solutions to Air Force challenges at startup speed. The AFWERX trials will pit AI dogfighting algorithms against each other in a tournament-style competition...........”
DARPA: Training AI to Win a Dogfight
“.........The ACE program will train AI in the rules of aerial dogfighting similar to how new fighter pilots are taught, starting with basic fighter maneuvers in simple, one-on-one scenarios. While highly nonlinear in behavior, dogfights have a clearly defined objective, measureable outcome, and the inherent physical limitations of aircraft dynamics, making them a good test case for advanced tactical automation. Like human pilot combat training, the AI performance expansion will be closely monitored by fighter instructor pilots in the autonomous aircraft, which will help co-evolve tactics with the technology. These subject matter experts will play a key role throughout the program.
“Only after human pilots are confident that the AI algorithms are trustworthy in handling bounded, transparent and predictable behaviors will the aerial engagement scenarios increase in difficulty and realism,” Javorsek said. “Following virtual testing, we plan to demonstrate the dogfighting algorithms on sub-scale aircraft leading ultimately to live, full-scale manned-unmanned team dogfighting with operationally representative aircraft.”
DARPA seeks a broad spectrum of potential proposers for each area of study, including small companies and academics with little previous experience with the Defense Department. To that end, before Phase 1 of the program begins, DARPA will sponsor a stand-alone, limited-scope effort focused on the first technical area: automating individual tactical behavior for one-on-one dogfights. Called the “AlphaDogfight Trials,” this initial solicitation will be issued by AFWERX, an Air Force innovation catalyst with the mission of finding novel solutions to Air Force challenges at startup speed. The AFWERX trials will pit AI dogfighting algorithms against each other in a tournament-style competition...........”
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War of the Drones
For example ... would it be best to control Air Combat Drones/UAV's from the ground (as with current Reconnaissance or Ordnance delivery UAV's), or controlled from the air by something like a Sentry ... or is it conceivable that a Fighter Pilot could even have Drones/UAV's as Wingmen that could then be deployed in a "fight"?
Coff.
Coff.
Drone shoots down drone:
The little known story of how a US Air Force MQ-9 Reaper shot down another drone with a heat seeking missile
https://fightersweep.com/12293/the-l...eking-missile/
DARPA tech lets one pilot control multiple aircraft using only their brain
https://fightersweep.com/12291/darpa...y-their-brain/
The Skyborg Program: The Air Force’s new plan to give fighter pilots drone sidekicks
https://fightersweep.com/12241/the-s...one-sidekicks/
Thread drift but maybe of interest:
Declassified supersonic spy drone flew multiple failed missions over China in the 1960s
https://fightersweep.com/12316/decla...-in-the-1960s/
War of the drones is on the horizon. It was also predicted by Nostradamus, according to a book I read in the 90's interpreting his writings of the future. Shame it didn't mention Euro-millions lottery numbers.
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Drone vs Human
The detail that is missing from that article is what kind of fight are we talking about?
If it is a BVR scenario then I’m sure AI decision making could beat the human by a second or two.
If we are talking guns kills then I remain to be convinced it is worth the effort. Maybe the AI can eke out a few more bernouillis than a human.
In the world of all-aspect, high off-boresight missiles BFM (assuming no pre-merge kills) then, yes, the AI may well be able to get a firing solution quicker than a human.
Regardless of all of this, even the AI will still be constrained by the limits of radar and weapons.
It’s an interesting experiment that could go either way I suggest.
BV
If it is a BVR scenario then I’m sure AI decision making could beat the human by a second or two.
If we are talking guns kills then I remain to be convinced it is worth the effort. Maybe the AI can eke out a few more bernouillis than a human.
In the world of all-aspect, high off-boresight missiles BFM (assuming no pre-merge kills) then, yes, the AI may well be able to get a firing solution quicker than a human.
Regardless of all of this, even the AI will still be constrained by the limits of radar and weapons.
It’s an interesting experiment that could go either way I suggest.
BV
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
AlphaDogfight Trials Final will be streamed live on YouTube ? Alert 5
AlphaDogfight Trials Final will be streamed live on YouTube
The final event of Darpa’s AlphaDogfight Trials will be streamed live on YouTube Aug. 21. The winning AI team will go against a U.S. Air Force F-16 pilot.
DARPA’s AlphaDogfight Trials seeks to advance the state of artificial intelligence (AI) technologies applied to air combat operations. The trials are a computer-based competition designed to demonstrate advanced AI algorithms that can perform simulated within-visual-range air combat maneuvering, otherwise known as a dogfight. The goal is to use the dogfight as the challenge problem to increase performance and trust in AI algorithms and bring together the AI research and operator communities.
AlphaDogfight Trials Final will be streamed live on YouTube
The final event of Darpa’s AlphaDogfight Trials will be streamed live on YouTube Aug. 21. The winning AI team will go against a U.S. Air Force F-16 pilot.
DARPA’s AlphaDogfight Trials seeks to advance the state of artificial intelligence (AI) technologies applied to air combat operations. The trials are a computer-based competition designed to demonstrate advanced AI algorithms that can perform simulated within-visual-range air combat maneuvering, otherwise known as a dogfight. The goal is to use the dogfight as the challenge problem to increase performance and trust in AI algorithms and bring together the AI research and operator communities.
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Well there are a couple of Reapers down over Syria, US says they had a mid air but other side claiming shot down as you would.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...de-over-syria/
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-on-the-ground
https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...de-over-syria/
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-on-the-ground
AI Controlled F-16 Defeats Piloted F-16
Better start considering those alternate careers.
AI Controlled F-16 Defeats Pilot
An AI pilot has defeated a US Air Force pilot in a virtual F-16 dogfight in a "coming of age" moment for artificial intelligence.
The US military's AlphaDogfight Trials was organised by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa) - a secretive branch of the US Department of Defense responsible for the development of futuristic technologies.
It sought to demonstrate the "feasibility of developing effective, intelligent autonomous agents capable of defeating adversary aircraft in a dogfight."
The winning AI pilot, developed by Heron Systems, defeated other AI adversaries before going on to beat a human pilot wearing a VR helmet by a score of 5 - 0 in the final.
"We've gotten an opportunity to watch AI come of age [against] a very credible adversary in the human pilot," said Col. Dan Javorsek, program manager in Darpa's Strategic Technology Office.
"The AlphaDogfight Trials is all about increasing trust in AI. If the champion AI earns the respect of an F-16 pilot, we'll have come one step closer to achieving effective human-machine teaming in air combat."
The human pilot, who went by the name 'Banger', said that he was unable to match twisting techniques adopted by the AI pilot that he had not witnessed in human-to-human air combat.
"Standard things we do as fighter pilots are not working," he said during a live broadcast.
AI Controlled F-16 Defeats Pilot
An AI pilot has defeated a US Air Force pilot in a virtual F-16 dogfight in a "coming of age" moment for artificial intelligence.
The US military's AlphaDogfight Trials was organised by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa) - a secretive branch of the US Department of Defense responsible for the development of futuristic technologies.
It sought to demonstrate the "feasibility of developing effective, intelligent autonomous agents capable of defeating adversary aircraft in a dogfight."
The winning AI pilot, developed by Heron Systems, defeated other AI adversaries before going on to beat a human pilot wearing a VR helmet by a score of 5 - 0 in the final.
"We've gotten an opportunity to watch AI come of age [against] a very credible adversary in the human pilot," said Col. Dan Javorsek, program manager in Darpa's Strategic Technology Office.
"The AlphaDogfight Trials is all about increasing trust in AI. If the champion AI earns the respect of an F-16 pilot, we'll have come one step closer to achieving effective human-machine teaming in air combat."
The human pilot, who went by the name 'Banger', said that he was unable to match twisting techniques adopted by the AI pilot that he had not witnessed in human-to-human air combat.
"Standard things we do as fighter pilots are not working," he said during a live broadcast.
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The question at the end of the day has to be what is the point? If you build an AI fighter and so presumably does your opposition to counter the threat, then the eventual outcome comes down to resources and attrition. It becomes a war won simply on production rates not on lost lives and a defeated population if that makes sense, which seems a pointless exercise to start with....
I can understand why an AI aircraft will eventually win out as an F16 with a pilot will always have to operate with in the limits of the pilots tolerance to G etc, a AI version is free from that constraint. It was one advantage Bader held over his German counterparts, without legs and the problems of blood pooling in his lower extremities, he was more G tolerant than his opposition.
I can understand why an AI aircraft will eventually win out as an F16 with a pilot will always have to operate with in the limits of the pilots tolerance to G etc, a AI version is free from that constraint. It was one advantage Bader held over his German counterparts, without legs and the problems of blood pooling in his lower extremities, he was more G tolerant than his opposition.
The question at the end of the day has to be what is the point? If you build an AI fighter and so presumably does your opposition to counter the threat, then the eventual outcome comes down to resources and attrition. It becomes a war won simply on production rates not on lost lives and a defeated population if that makes sense, which seems a pointless exercise to start with....
I can understand why an AI aircraft will eventually win out as an F16 with a pilot will always have to operate with in the limits of the pilots tolerance to G etc, a AI version is free from that constraint. It was one advantage Bader held over his German counterparts, without legs and the problems of blood pooling in his lower extremities, he was more G tolerant than his opposition.
I can understand why an AI aircraft will eventually win out as an F16 with a pilot will always have to operate with in the limits of the pilots tolerance to G etc, a AI version is free from that constraint. It was one advantage Bader held over his German counterparts, without legs and the problems of blood pooling in his lower extremities, he was more G tolerant than his opposition.
Good point
It just becomes a game of destroying each other’s expensive drones
Can’t see how an advantage is gained