Ukraine Crisis 2014
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you could have the decency to engage with other members without lying about who you are or what you're about.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith...-uk#.naJbRyXmA
I believe "Ronald Regan" is the Russian expression for "Duty Officer".
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But Fitter, have not the west armed rebels/terrorists before? The US did so in Afghanistan in the 1980s and more recently the west has done so in Libya and Syria, arming actual terrorists. In the case of Libya they even attacked said country removing the leadership from power and creating a totally broken and non functioning state in the process. In the case of Syria its Russia who has managed to stop another western war to remove Assad from power and replace him with terrorists.
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I have to say that its rather interesting how anyone with a counter opinion is regarded as a ''Russian Agent'' or ''troll''. Maybe some of the pro Washington/NATO comments on here are actually from some secret US government department who are paid to do such things!!! 
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For what it's worth, some studies indicate that NATO's presence has helped reduce experienced threat levels and facilitated democratic reform in parts of Eastern Europe.
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Why on earth would we want to risk turning a small local conflict over a nation that is next door to Russia into World War 3 and the destruction of us all.
The biggest embarrassment is the fact that he can supply all the best weapons, troops etc, and we supply MRE's. The funniest thing is the Russians being horrified that we could even contemplate such a thing. Putin must be ROFL.
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I have to say that its rather interesting how anyone with a counter opinion is regarded as a ''Russian Agent'' or ''troll''. Maybe some of the pro Washington/NATO comments on here are actually from some secret US government department who are paid to do such things!!!
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Brewers Droop, yes the west tends to bomb/invade a country, level it, then create some puppet government/regime then leave. Maybe if Moscow had called the Ukraine mission ''Operation Ukrainian Freedom'' and if they had gone in with large numbers of forces like the US in Iraq, then after about a year or so Bush, sorry I mean Putin could land on the Russian carrier in the Black Sea wearing a flight suit, the carrier could be covered in banners saying '' Mission Accomplished'' Then Russian forces could leave safe in the knowledge their puppet government would do their bidding and no annexing of territory would be needed. Maybe the west would be ok with this as they have done the same in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya! (Though actually the puppet governments in Afghanistan and Iraq have asked western forces to remain albeit in reduced numbers, mighty convenient that! (Actually I am sure the west would oppose this to, after all, its only they who can go around the world and engage in general and reckless warmongering!
Then Russian forces could leave safe in the knowledge their puppet government would do their bidding and no annexing of territory would be needed. Maybe the west would be ok with this as they have done the same in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya! (Though actually the puppet governments in Afghanistan and Iraq have asked western forces to remain albeit in reduced numbers, mighty convenient that! (Actually I am sure the west would oppose this to, after all, its only they who can go around the world and engage in general and reckless warmongering!
Last edited by Ronald Reagan; 8th Feb 2015 at 20:19.
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Brewers Droop you also have to remember Crimea was part of Russia until the 1950s and after the coup in Kiev the locals wanted to join Russia again. Much of the eastern population of Ukraine also did not approve of the coup in Kiev and lean towards Moscow. Its only natural if Kiev use force against them Moscow will give some support them. As I pointed out earlier the west has supported rebels (terrorists) in Libya and Syria in recent years, the US did the same in Afghanistan in the 1980s. Right now the US regime dreams of ousting Assad from power and thus supports various terrorists in Syria to try and make this dream (nightmare) a reality.
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RR
Sigh - the old "it used to be ours in history arguement". So I am assuming Russia will now give Ukraine back to Turkey? Incidentally, the Crimea was given to what was then the Ukraine SSR in 1954 by who (let me give you a clue R_u_s...you can finish it). I say again, in the 21st Century big neighbours don't go into smaller and weaker neighbours and seize territory by force of arms.
You conveniantly ignore 'the locals' that didn't. Anyway, the current fighting is in Easter Ukraine NOT Crimea. Just because some of the population want to be part of Russia it gives them no right to try and take it by force of arms (apparently supplied by Russia)
No its not. Period. End of. Russia has absolutely no legal or moral right to unilaterally to go in to a Soveriegn Nation, arm the opposition, and fight a Democratically elected Government (I am talking democratically elected not one that simply took over by a coup or similar) regardless of whether they deny doing so or not. And you seem to be very blinkered on who is using force against who.
Was that the Afghanistan were Russia went in, shot the leader and replaced him? By the way, isnt Afghanistan now a place were 'the west' (whoever they are) are now supporting a Government elected by fair and free elections across the whole country rather than the might of the Soviet Army?
Aside, there is a big difference in acting against regimes that commit gross violations of human rights against their populations rather than simply acting against a Soveriegn country because you fancy some Territory back...
I risk feeding a troll but my red wine tastes quite pleasant this evening
Brewers Droop you also have to remember Crimea was part of Russia until the 1950s
and after the coup in Kiev the locals wanted to join Russia again
Its only natural if Kiev use force against them Moscow will give some support them.
As I pointed out earlier the west has supported rebels (terrorists) in Libya and Syria in recent years, the US did the same in Afghanistan in the 1980s.
Aside, there is a big difference in acting against regimes that commit gross violations of human rights against their populations rather than simply acting against a Soveriegn country because you fancy some Territory back...
I risk feeding a troll but my red wine tastes quite pleasant this evening
Last edited by Brewers Droop; 8th Feb 2015 at 20:57.
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Brewers Droop, the people of Crimea were not asked if they wished to be part of Ukraine in 1954, they were however in 2014 asked if they wished to be part of Russia.
You say that larger neighbours cannot go into smaller and weaker neighbours? But is it ok for Washington to invade and attack smaller and weaker nations far away from their own nation?
At the end of the day its easily possible the majority in eastern Ukraine want to be part of Russia again or at least a new independent nation, but for sure some of the people want this. Russia supporting them is NO different to Washington supporting various anti government groups in Libya and Syria! Its arguably less bad than the actions of Washington.
I would agree Moscow has no legal right to do this BUT I would say they have a moral right to support their own people. Its unrealistic to expect them to do nothing as its on their doorstep.
I would suggest if the Soviets had won in Afghanistan there would not have been a 911! Also if the west had not destroyed Libya then its unlikely in a Gaddafi ruled Libya that the terrorists would have been able to assassinate the US Ambassador and without the wests invasion of Iraq and later attempts to remove Assad in Syria there would be no IS! Talk about total foreign policy failure and blowback! Its a bit hard to respect governments and leaders who are behind such disasters.
Compared to all this Russia being involved in their next door neighbouring country in a limited way hardly seems the crime of the century.
Considering the outrageous actions of western governments in recent years for moral reasons and reasons of humility it would be best if they simply kept their mouths shut, sadly that's unlikely as they were most likely behind the coup in Kiev setting those whole chain of events in Ukraine in motion, they should be utterly ashamed of themselves.
You say that larger neighbours cannot go into smaller and weaker neighbours? But is it ok for Washington to invade and attack smaller and weaker nations far away from their own nation?
At the end of the day its easily possible the majority in eastern Ukraine want to be part of Russia again or at least a new independent nation, but for sure some of the people want this. Russia supporting them is NO different to Washington supporting various anti government groups in Libya and Syria! Its arguably less bad than the actions of Washington.
I would agree Moscow has no legal right to do this BUT I would say they have a moral right to support their own people. Its unrealistic to expect them to do nothing as its on their doorstep.
I would suggest if the Soviets had won in Afghanistan there would not have been a 911! Also if the west had not destroyed Libya then its unlikely in a Gaddafi ruled Libya that the terrorists would have been able to assassinate the US Ambassador and without the wests invasion of Iraq and later attempts to remove Assad in Syria there would be no IS! Talk about total foreign policy failure and blowback! Its a bit hard to respect governments and leaders who are behind such disasters.
Compared to all this Russia being involved in their next door neighbouring country in a limited way hardly seems the crime of the century.
Considering the outrageous actions of western governments in recent years for moral reasons and reasons of humility it would be best if they simply kept their mouths shut, sadly that's unlikely as they were most likely behind the coup in Kiev setting those whole chain of events in Ukraine in motion, they should be utterly ashamed of themselves.
Last edited by Ronald Reagan; 8th Feb 2015 at 21:12.
RR - 'Asking the people' where Russia is involved is a dangerous occupation. Ask the people whose money was stolen and their Russian lawyer who brought the case was imprisoned and beaten to death there.
And making apologies for your comrades actions in Afghanistan - really? It must be boring in the Kremlin tonight, haven't you any escaped dissidents to assassinate?
And making apologies for your comrades actions in Afghanistan - really? It must be boring in the Kremlin tonight, haven't you any escaped dissidents to assassinate?
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RR
Sadly my bottle of best capitalist red wine is finished so I will agree to disagree. This will be my last on the matter.
Why do you keep comparing Ukraine with other countries? You imply that Russia can behave in this way simply because 'the west' has intervened.
More conveniantly you completely disregard the rational for those interventions? In Syria, Assad was commiting gross human rights violations against his people including the use of chemical weapons. In Libya civil unrest was responded to by troops firing in to crowds with live bullets. Both leaders had a long history of the complete disregard of the human rights of their population. I don't see the Democratically elected Ukraine Government doing this??? Instead, I see a small country defending its territory against both an armed opposition supplied and supported by a big neighbour determined to take territory by use of force with complete disregard to international law. And if you don't see that then I would suggest you are either Putin (and I collect my 5 pounds) or are of a political view that simply will not accept that Russia is conducting a form of real politic that is best left in the 19th and early 20th Century.
Incidentally, you may find the idea of responsibility to protect enlightening Responsibility to Protect. I hope you do.
Good Night - BP
Sadly my bottle of best capitalist red wine is finished so I will agree to disagree. This will be my last on the matter.
Why do you keep comparing Ukraine with other countries? You imply that Russia can behave in this way simply because 'the west' has intervened.
More conveniantly you completely disregard the rational for those interventions? In Syria, Assad was commiting gross human rights violations against his people including the use of chemical weapons. In Libya civil unrest was responded to by troops firing in to crowds with live bullets. Both leaders had a long history of the complete disregard of the human rights of their population. I don't see the Democratically elected Ukraine Government doing this??? Instead, I see a small country defending its territory against both an armed opposition supplied and supported by a big neighbour determined to take territory by use of force with complete disregard to international law. And if you don't see that then I would suggest you are either Putin (and I collect my 5 pounds) or are of a political view that simply will not accept that Russia is conducting a form of real politic that is best left in the 19th and early 20th Century.
Incidentally, you may find the idea of responsibility to protect enlightening Responsibility to Protect. I hope you do.
Good Night - BP
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Maybe it would have been better if the Soviets/Russians still had forces in Germany even in a post reunified Germany. We have to remember why there were Soviet forces in Germany! Would imagine the west were keen for them to be there in the early to mid 1940s! For me the pre 1990 world was fine, much more simple with USA and NATO vs USSR and Warsaw Pact, there was more balance and seemingly more sensible leaders in the west! Since then the west has kind of been out of control with its actions. Maybe the USSR and Warsaw Pact could have countered some of that arrogance.
We do remember why there were Russian troops in East Germany, and the state they left it in when they finally realised they were unwanted. It took a lot of Western money to replace what was stolen.
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Comrade RR. but those days don't exist anymore. They were quite simply M.A.D.
And Putin's attempt to recreate this world (or his own perception of it) is extremely dangerous for everyone, is ultimately doomed to failure and ultimately benefits no one.
The rest of the world has moved on........
Now for the final time. Good night
And Putin's attempt to recreate this world (or his own perception of it) is extremely dangerous for everyone, is ultimately doomed to failure and ultimately benefits no one.
The rest of the world has moved on........
Now for the final time. Good night
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Brewers Droop, if the west does something which sets a precedent then other nations can and will do the same!
In Syria we only know what the west has told us, remember we were told about Saddam having WMDs and also how he could attack Britain in 45 minutes! Assad is by far the lessor of two evils when compared to the terrorists against him. In Libya Gaddafi actually warned if he was removed the terrorists would take over and rule the country, he had actually joined us in the war on terror then western governments stabbed him in the back and betrayed him. Now Libya does not even exist as a country. We must keep out of these things.
Kiev forces are shelling civilian population centres in eastern Ukraine. This so called elected government only came about thanks to an illegal coup likely instigated by the west as Yanukovych refused to do their bidding. I now see a western puppet government who mainly come from western Ukraine wishing to force their views on the people of eastern Ukraine, most of whom supported Yanukovych, this is a civil war with Russia supporting one side and the west supporting the other and likely being the instigator of the whole thing. Western governments don't seem to care at all about the civilians of eastern Ukraine. I don't think they care about any civilians. After Maidan some protestors in the east rose up but were quickly put down by Kiev forces hence things escalated. Yanukovych should still be the President of Ukraine.
In Syria we only know what the west has told us, remember we were told about Saddam having WMDs and also how he could attack Britain in 45 minutes! Assad is by far the lessor of two evils when compared to the terrorists against him. In Libya Gaddafi actually warned if he was removed the terrorists would take over and rule the country, he had actually joined us in the war on terror then western governments stabbed him in the back and betrayed him. Now Libya does not even exist as a country. We must keep out of these things.
Kiev forces are shelling civilian population centres in eastern Ukraine. This so called elected government only came about thanks to an illegal coup likely instigated by the west as Yanukovych refused to do their bidding. I now see a western puppet government who mainly come from western Ukraine wishing to force their views on the people of eastern Ukraine, most of whom supported Yanukovych, this is a civil war with Russia supporting one side and the west supporting the other and likely being the instigator of the whole thing. Western governments don't seem to care at all about the civilians of eastern Ukraine. I don't think they care about any civilians. After Maidan some protestors in the east rose up but were quickly put down by Kiev forces hence things escalated. Yanukovych should still be the President of Ukraine.
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Fitter, World War 2! The Russians should have kept at least some bases in Germany, it would have provided balance to this modern world.
I like Ronald, he's so cool
