Ukraine Crisis 2014
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While the conflict in the Ukraine is largely forgotten, Russia is at it again in Syria threatening to shoot down Western fighter jets. Once again Russia is on the wrong side of a conflict. I am very sorry for the Russian people. Hopefully Putin will soon be history.
How soon we forget...
MH17 shot down by rebels with missile from Russia, say investigators | The Independent
MH17 shot down by rebels with missile from Russia, say investigators | The Independent
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How soon we forget...
MH17 shot down by rebels with missile from Russia, say investigators | The Independent
MH17 shot down by rebels with missile from Russia, say investigators | The Independent
A clear example of generating fake news on the spot. In the article as per the URL mentioned it is said that the missile was (presumably) launched from the area controlled by the (Ukrainian) rebels. But this is still Ukraine and the rebels are Ukrainians.
Following this logic one may say that when Syrian rebels are shooting at the Assad's army these are Americans or British, etc. shooting (from their territory). Nonsense, isn't it?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Van,
Let's not go through this again. There are photos of the Russian Army SAM unit entering Ukraine and then quickly exiting after the misidentification and engagement happened. The identities of the firing unit and their unit have been identified to the satisfaction of everyone outside Russia - which continues to this day to try and generate false news and confusion.
If the Dutch and the Malaysians were at war that might be acceptable, as it is not it is contemptible. The USN screwed up over IAF655 but eventually admitted responsibility for a tragic mistake and paid compensation - the Kremlin to this day refuses to admit the facts and denies the families both closure and compensation.
And you wonder why so many still so hate and fear both the Russians and the armed forces in Eastern Europe, the Baltics and Scandinavia?
Let's not go through this again. There are photos of the Russian Army SAM unit entering Ukraine and then quickly exiting after the misidentification and engagement happened. The identities of the firing unit and their unit have been identified to the satisfaction of everyone outside Russia - which continues to this day to try and generate false news and confusion.
If the Dutch and the Malaysians were at war that might be acceptable, as it is not it is contemptible. The USN screwed up over IAF655 but eventually admitted responsibility for a tragic mistake and paid compensation - the Kremlin to this day refuses to admit the facts and denies the families both closure and compensation.
And you wonder why so many still so hate and fear both the Russians and the armed forces in Eastern Europe, the Baltics and Scandinavia?
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Van,
Let's not go through this again. There are photos of the Russian Army SAM unit entering Ukraine and then quickly exiting after the misidentification and engagement happened. The identities of the firing unit and their unit have been identified to the satisfaction of everyone outside Russia - which continues to this day to try and generate false news and confusion.
Let's not go through this again. There are photos of the Russian Army SAM unit entering Ukraine and then quickly exiting after the misidentification and engagement happened. The identities of the firing unit and their unit have been identified to the satisfaction of everyone outside Russia - which continues to this day to try and generate false news and confusion.
Are you serious? All this stuff is taken from social networks (SN). First, provocators like "billingcats" and likes publish some fake news with fake evidences in various SN and then others use them as references and "confirmed" evidences.
But this is an informational war with no rules and all those dirty journalists do not surprise me. Western press do not publish evidences that circulate in Russia and vice versa.
What negatively surprised me, was the technical report from TNO and NLR, which I studied attentively. Experts were using some M&S (modeling and simulation) frameworks with very little and fragmentary input data and did not hesitate to make conclusions. Moreover, the data offered by the BuK manufacturers were rejected.
Imagine a Boeing or Airbus aircraft crashes somewhere in a remote "3rd world" location and local authorities say: "We can reconstruct the work of the aircraft systems ourselves and determine the cause, we do not need aircraft manufacturer data and support because they are dumbs".
I am sure we will not convince each, though. Thus, I am sorry for not having time for this discussion.
Perhaps some new data will pop out sooner or later.
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Fortunately the EU just prolonged the sanctions against Russia for their past involvement in the conflict and continued failure to do their part in ending it. For as far as MH17 is concerned it is still awfully quiet but eventually Russia will be held responsible and pay for their responsibility in downing it!
Van, don't forget that quite a few on this sub-forum have access to source level information on this SAM firing. I can categorically state that this was a system under Russian control.
What surprises me is the willingness of the Russian population to accept a Russian government distortion in that the Ukrainian forces, who did not face an air threat and where aircraft were friendly forces, would suddenly decide to deploy, target and fire a missile. Such logic belongs in the same bin as Russian soldiers fighting as formed units 'on holiday' and 'little green men'.
What surprises me is the willingness of the Russian population to accept a Russian government distortion in that the Ukrainian forces, who did not face an air threat and where aircraft were friendly forces, would suddenly decide to deploy, target and fire a missile. Such logic belongs in the same bin as Russian soldiers fighting as formed units 'on holiday' and 'little green men'.
People believe what they want to be true, especially in a country with no history of free thinking and lots of history of destroying those who exhibit independent thought.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
MH17 suspects will be prosecuted in the Hague
The people suspected of shooting down a Malaysia Airlines jet in eastern Ukraine three years ago will be prosecuted in the Hague under Dutch law. The decision was made by Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, Ukraine and the Netherlands after Russia vetoed proposals to set up an international tribunal at the UN.
Although no suspects have been charged yet, the joint investigation claims to have “extensive” evidence on about 100 people likely to include Russian military personnel as well as Ukrainian separatist rebels. ,So far only two Russian-speaking men, named, but not verified, as Andrey Ivanovich, also known as “Orion”, and Nikolay Fiodorovich, using the pseudonym “Delfin”, have been identified as possible suspects.
Flight MH17 was shot down on July 17, 2014, killing all 283 passengers on board and 15 crew over eastern Ukraine. Among the passengers were 38 Australians, 43 Malaysians, 193 Dutch, and 10 Britons. A Dutch-led investigation concluded that the plane was shot down by a Buk missile system that had been transported from Russia to Ukraine on the day of the crash. Trial proceedings will probably be held in absentia because of Russia’s opposition to bringing suspects to justice for the killings.
The five countries working together in the investigation of the shooting down of the aircraft chose the Netherlands both because of the number of Dutch people who died in the crash but also because of the country’s international reputation as judicial arbitrators. “With this decision we are taking a next step on the way to uncover the truth, the prosecution of suspects and satisfaction for the bereaved,” Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, said. “That remains the highest priority for the Dutch government.”.....
Malcolm Turnbull, the Australian prime minister, said he had full confidence in the Dutch legal system and urged other states to co-operate with the investigation. “While we cannot take away the grief of those who lost their loved ones because of this atrocious act, we are committed to holding the perpetrators to account and achieving justice for all the victims,” he said.
The Buk-M1 anti-aircraft missile system used to shoot down MH17 has been linked to Russia’s 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, which was active in the region in 2014. At that time the Russian military was supporting armed rebels in a wider conflict with Ukraine after Moscow’s annexation of Crimea that year.
Tjibbe Joustra, who led the investigation, has suggested that any trial would have to be held in absentia because Russia will not co-operate on extraditing suspects from its territory. “I don’t see anybody going to jail quickly, but I think the truth will come out,” he told the Volkskrant newspaper.
The people suspected of shooting down a Malaysia Airlines jet in eastern Ukraine three years ago will be prosecuted in the Hague under Dutch law. The decision was made by Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, Ukraine and the Netherlands after Russia vetoed proposals to set up an international tribunal at the UN.
Although no suspects have been charged yet, the joint investigation claims to have “extensive” evidence on about 100 people likely to include Russian military personnel as well as Ukrainian separatist rebels. ,So far only two Russian-speaking men, named, but not verified, as Andrey Ivanovich, also known as “Orion”, and Nikolay Fiodorovich, using the pseudonym “Delfin”, have been identified as possible suspects.
Flight MH17 was shot down on July 17, 2014, killing all 283 passengers on board and 15 crew over eastern Ukraine. Among the passengers were 38 Australians, 43 Malaysians, 193 Dutch, and 10 Britons. A Dutch-led investigation concluded that the plane was shot down by a Buk missile system that had been transported from Russia to Ukraine on the day of the crash. Trial proceedings will probably be held in absentia because of Russia’s opposition to bringing suspects to justice for the killings.
The five countries working together in the investigation of the shooting down of the aircraft chose the Netherlands both because of the number of Dutch people who died in the crash but also because of the country’s international reputation as judicial arbitrators. “With this decision we are taking a next step on the way to uncover the truth, the prosecution of suspects and satisfaction for the bereaved,” Mark Rutte, the Dutch prime minister, said. “That remains the highest priority for the Dutch government.”.....
Malcolm Turnbull, the Australian prime minister, said he had full confidence in the Dutch legal system and urged other states to co-operate with the investigation. “While we cannot take away the grief of those who lost their loved ones because of this atrocious act, we are committed to holding the perpetrators to account and achieving justice for all the victims,” he said.
The Buk-M1 anti-aircraft missile system used to shoot down MH17 has been linked to Russia’s 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, which was active in the region in 2014. At that time the Russian military was supporting armed rebels in a wider conflict with Ukraine after Moscow’s annexation of Crimea that year.
Tjibbe Joustra, who led the investigation, has suggested that any trial would have to be held in absentia because Russia will not co-operate on extraditing suspects from its territory. “I don’t see anybody going to jail quickly, but I think the truth will come out,” he told the Volkskrant newspaper.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Munich Security Forum: Graham to Russia on Ukraine: 'You’re going to get what you deserve'
MUNICH — Defense leaders from Europe and the United States expressed optimism about the prospect of Ukraine becoming a NATO member, with Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina arguing that relations with Moscow may be beyond salvageable anyway.
Ukraine president Petro Poroschenko raged against Russia during a speech at the Munich Security Conference, accusing its neighbor to the east of waging what he described as a hybrid war, and asking NATO allies to stand with the embattled country against an increasingly threatening adversary. “My message to you is that it is in our joint interest to resist Russians attempt to break our unity and ruin our democracy throughout Europe or throughout the world…. to prove Europe is a continent of stability, peace and cooperation,” Poroschenko said. “Dear friends, these values are our greatest assets against the Russian threat.”
Interestingly, the plea came after a dialogue among global defense leaders at the conference about whether Ukraine might ever become a NATO member. That prospect of Ukraine acceptance into NATO has been something of a quagmire for allies — reasonable on its face, but also bringing with it political ramifications that could ultimately erupt in a political disaster if not managed with great care.
Ten years ago the post Soviet state was denied consideration for membership at the Bucharest Summit, in part due to fear of heightening tensions with Moscow. But a lot can change in a decade, said Rose Gottemoeller, NATO deputy secretary general. She pointed to the alliance’s “open door policy,” while also acknowledging that Ukraine has not, as a matter of policy, sought NATO membership as of yet. (The Ukrainian parliament did vote in 2017 to restore NATO membership as the country’s strategic foreign policy objective, however.)
Sen. Graham, R-S.C., was far more candid, not only in his support of Ukraine, but in his disgust with Russia for aggressive tactics in Europe and election tampering in the United States. “To our friends in the Ukraine, I want it to be your decision [to join NATO] not Russia’s decision,” Graham said. It’s worth NATO allies considering that “the Ukrainians gave up a nuclear weapons arsenal, with the understanding that ‘if I do this I’m good to go.’ We signed up and everybody else did. And our friends in Russia step all over that.
“The rule of law means nothing to Russia,” Graham continued. “Does it mean anything to us? I’d be glad to have a better relationship with Russia but it’s difficult. I used to worry about antagonizing Russia. I won’t worry about that anymore. You’re going to get what you deserve if you keep this up. And to our friends in Georgia and Ukraine, be patient. Hopefully the rest of us will get a backbone and push back against aggression that I feel is unwarranted.”
Advocacy is in fact critical to NATO membership, argued Estonia Defence Minister Jüri Luik. He credited President George W. Bush and his cordial relationship with Russia President Vladimir Putin as a major factor in Estonia becoming a NATO member in 2004. “I believe Ukraine will be in NATO, Luik said. “I cannot predict the time, but I’ve always said to my Ukrainian and Georgian colleagues, be patient, work for it, be ready. When we joined, President Putin said only one thing: ‘Well we don’t like it but we certainly won’t start a war [over] it.’ It was a windmill.”
MUNICH — Defense leaders from Europe and the United States expressed optimism about the prospect of Ukraine becoming a NATO member, with Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina arguing that relations with Moscow may be beyond salvageable anyway.
Ukraine president Petro Poroschenko raged against Russia during a speech at the Munich Security Conference, accusing its neighbor to the east of waging what he described as a hybrid war, and asking NATO allies to stand with the embattled country against an increasingly threatening adversary. “My message to you is that it is in our joint interest to resist Russians attempt to break our unity and ruin our democracy throughout Europe or throughout the world…. to prove Europe is a continent of stability, peace and cooperation,” Poroschenko said. “Dear friends, these values are our greatest assets against the Russian threat.”
Interestingly, the plea came after a dialogue among global defense leaders at the conference about whether Ukraine might ever become a NATO member. That prospect of Ukraine acceptance into NATO has been something of a quagmire for allies — reasonable on its face, but also bringing with it political ramifications that could ultimately erupt in a political disaster if not managed with great care.
Ten years ago the post Soviet state was denied consideration for membership at the Bucharest Summit, in part due to fear of heightening tensions with Moscow. But a lot can change in a decade, said Rose Gottemoeller, NATO deputy secretary general. She pointed to the alliance’s “open door policy,” while also acknowledging that Ukraine has not, as a matter of policy, sought NATO membership as of yet. (The Ukrainian parliament did vote in 2017 to restore NATO membership as the country’s strategic foreign policy objective, however.)
Sen. Graham, R-S.C., was far more candid, not only in his support of Ukraine, but in his disgust with Russia for aggressive tactics in Europe and election tampering in the United States. “To our friends in the Ukraine, I want it to be your decision [to join NATO] not Russia’s decision,” Graham said. It’s worth NATO allies considering that “the Ukrainians gave up a nuclear weapons arsenal, with the understanding that ‘if I do this I’m good to go.’ We signed up and everybody else did. And our friends in Russia step all over that.
“The rule of law means nothing to Russia,” Graham continued. “Does it mean anything to us? I’d be glad to have a better relationship with Russia but it’s difficult. I used to worry about antagonizing Russia. I won’t worry about that anymore. You’re going to get what you deserve if you keep this up. And to our friends in Georgia and Ukraine, be patient. Hopefully the rest of us will get a backbone and push back against aggression that I feel is unwarranted.”
Advocacy is in fact critical to NATO membership, argued Estonia Defence Minister Jüri Luik. He credited President George W. Bush and his cordial relationship with Russia President Vladimir Putin as a major factor in Estonia becoming a NATO member in 2004. “I believe Ukraine will be in NATO, Luik said. “I cannot predict the time, but I’ve always said to my Ukrainian and Georgian colleagues, be patient, work for it, be ready. When we joined, President Putin said only one thing: ‘Well we don’t like it but we certainly won’t start a war [over] it.’ It was a windmill.”
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...51321.html?amp
Crimea: Three Ukraine navy boats captured by Russian special forces following firefight, force claims
Ukraine‘s navy has claimed Russia opened fire on some of its ships in the Black Sea, hitting two vessels and wounding two crew members.
The navy said in a statement on its Facebook page that two of its small armoured artillery ships, the Berdyansk and the Nikopol, were damaged by Russian fire.
The two gunboats were then seized by Russian special forces along with a tug named the Yani Kapu, the navy added in a later statement.
The Independent has contacted Russia’s Federal Security Service, known as the FSB, for comment
Crimea: Three Ukraine navy boats captured by Russian special forces following firefight, force claims
Ukraine‘s navy has claimed Russia opened fire on some of its ships in the Black Sea, hitting two vessels and wounding two crew members.
The navy said in a statement on its Facebook page that two of its small armoured artillery ships, the Berdyansk and the Nikopol, were damaged by Russian fire.
The two gunboats were then seized by Russian special forces along with a tug named the Yani Kapu, the navy added in a later statement.
The Independent has contacted Russia’s Federal Security Service, known as the FSB, for comment
Things are escalating quickly:
"BREAKING: Crimea Tensions: Ukrainian Air Force now alerted to full combat readiness. All tactical/attack assets are required to be airborne within 15-30 minutes, once and if called upon"
"Ukrainian military units in Odesa region on "battle alert," also Ukrainian Navy and Air Force units on "full alert," according to Ukrainian agencies. Ukrainian President Poroshenko is scheduled to meet at 10 pm local time (1 min from now) w/his military cabinet"
"Russia's state TV claims that Ukraine and unnamed powers in Washington "staged a provocation" near the Kerch Strait "to disrupt the upcoming meeting between Putin and Trump" at the G20 in Argentina"
"Ukraine calls for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council following Crimea tensions."
"BREAKING: Crimea Tensions: Ukrainian Air Force now alerted to full combat readiness. All tactical/attack assets are required to be airborne within 15-30 minutes, once and if called upon"
"Ukrainian military units in Odesa region on "battle alert," also Ukrainian Navy and Air Force units on "full alert," according to Ukrainian agencies. Ukrainian President Poroshenko is scheduled to meet at 10 pm local time (1 min from now) w/his military cabinet"
"Russia's state TV claims that Ukraine and unnamed powers in Washington "staged a provocation" near the Kerch Strait "to disrupt the upcoming meeting between Putin and Trump" at the G20 in Argentina"
"Ukraine calls for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council following Crimea tensions."
Pretty fresh news. Wonder if the next shoe drops.
Where next - let's hope sanity prevails on both sides.
