Civvy flying mil aircraft
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Civvy flying mil aircraft
Hi all
I'm a civvy new FI but would like to get into mil instructing perhaps in the future(long time need experience I know) but just doing some research.
How is it that civilian contractors can fly military aircraft? I think the Tutor guys that are civvys have EASA licences? I presume those guys flying hawks can do so without a rating etc.. Because they are contractor for MOD?
I always wondered about the CIvvy Instructors when a was a Viking VGS staff cadet. They aren't contractors or employed or anything. They just rock up as volunteers, fly cadets and have no ties to RAF or anything.
Cheers for any insights!
I'm a civvy new FI but would like to get into mil instructing perhaps in the future(long time need experience I know) but just doing some research.
How is it that civilian contractors can fly military aircraft? I think the Tutor guys that are civvys have EASA licences? I presume those guys flying hawks can do so without a rating etc.. Because they are contractor for MOD?
I always wondered about the CIvvy Instructors when a was a Viking VGS staff cadet. They aren't contractors or employed or anything. They just rock up as volunteers, fly cadets and have no ties to RAF or anything.
Cheers for any insights!
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Colchester
Age: 40
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Civvy flying mil aircraft
As a former Viking instructor, I must say you are badly informed on the VGS side, and saying we just "rock up" is offensive in the least.
On completion of your scholarship as a cadet, you have the option to apply for Advanced Glider Training, which shows advanced (surprise) techniques and 5 solos. You have the option to come back as junior staff, which includes what could be called "on the job training."
The end result is a home-grown core of staff members who only become instructors upon completion of courses with Central Glider Squadron at RAFC Cranwell and RAF Syerston. The only people who might have a shorter path to the CGS are those with previous flying experience.
As for FRADU, you have no chance without previous fast jet experience. As for the AEFs, if you aren't in the RAF(VR) or a service pilot or in a UAS already, forget it.
On completion of your scholarship as a cadet, you have the option to apply for Advanced Glider Training, which shows advanced (surprise) techniques and 5 solos. You have the option to come back as junior staff, which includes what could be called "on the job training."
The end result is a home-grown core of staff members who only become instructors upon completion of courses with Central Glider Squadron at RAFC Cranwell and RAF Syerston. The only people who might have a shorter path to the CGS are those with previous flying experience.
As for FRADU, you have no chance without previous fast jet experience. As for the AEFs, if you aren't in the RAF(VR) or a service pilot or in a UAS already, forget it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey dash I recognise all that, sorry I wasn't haven't a pop at the very hard working guys and girls. I was just trying to understand how as pure civilians that are not employed or on a contract they can be flying military aircraft and kids? What happens if there is an incident, they just walk away?
Yep I know FRADU is well out of my league, was thinking more of the Babcock tutor jobs.
Yep I know FRADU is well out of my league, was thinking more of the Babcock tutor jobs.
As an aside, in 1989 it was decided to deal with a shortage of RAF Instructors on UAS's etc, by recruiting civilian instructors with a view to their becoming members of the RAFVR. Twenty five went on the first course at RAF Cranwell, only one of whom passed (he subsequently became a Squadron Leader RAFVR) Such was the lack of success that the scheme was abandoned.
In conjunction with this scheme a new pattern of RAFVR pilots wings was designed and manufactured. This was similar to the RAF pattern, but with sky-blue feathers on the wings, and the letters "VR" replacing "RAF" in the centre. Apparently around 1,000 of these were (somewhat optimistically) made, the vast majority of which were disposed of through government surplus sales. I had ten at one time but I have sold them all over the years - rather wish I'd hung on to a pair!
In conjunction with this scheme a new pattern of RAFVR pilots wings was designed and manufactured. This was similar to the RAF pattern, but with sky-blue feathers on the wings, and the letters "VR" replacing "RAF" in the centre. Apparently around 1,000 of these were (somewhat optimistically) made, the vast majority of which were disposed of through government surplus sales. I had ten at one time but I have sold them all over the years - rather wish I'd hung on to a pair!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,761
Received 2,742 Likes
on
1,168 Posts
As for FRADU, you have no chance without previous fast jet experience
I know a Civi instructor that after falcons went onto the Hawk, he had no Fast Jet experience.
TTN ... I assume this is the RAF VR Instructors Brevet you refer to ...
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Civilians can't fly pure military aircraft that aren't civilian registered or that don't have an equivalent civilian type. So: Tutors are civvy, Squirrell and 412 are civvy but mil reg, King Air is civvy but mil reg (but unlikely to teach on that anyway!) For Tutor instruction on UAS/ AEF you need to be or have been a Qualified Service Pilot.
You won't find Civilians instructing on Hawk, Tucano or any frontline types.
You won't find Civilians instructing on Hawk, Tucano or any frontline types.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,761
Received 2,742 Likes
on
1,168 Posts
I wonder if it was the hunter then?
Coffman - yes those are the ones. I think I got various prices from £5 - £10 for mine, so that would seem about right. I havent seen a picture of the chap I referred to to wearing his - now that would be a rarity.
As opposed to just operating them - all the Hawk guys at Culdrose are civilians as far as I'm aware, but ex-mil of course.
Nutloose - excellent suggestion for the UAV pilots
You won't find Civilians instructing on Hawk, Tucano or any frontline types.
Nutloose - excellent suggestion for the UAV pilots
Join Date: May 2003
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You cannot be an AEF pilot without a VR(T) commission unless you are a regular QSP or QSN or QS anything for that matter (take note of next). To get that VR(T) commission you have to be recommended by the OC AEF. If you are from a civilian training background (or not QSP background) but have lots of SEP experience and have passed ATPL exams (latest guidance I understand) and are fully aware of the ethos thats supports the voluntary time you can give to the ACO then there's no problem. If you don't understand the TLAs please use google.
736 only has 2 or 3 civilian pilots now, all the rest are Royal Navy.
I spent most of last Tuesday with the squadron for an upcoming article.
I spent most of last Tuesday with the squadron for an upcoming article.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 58
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nearly 100% of 'Civie', for the military, instructors have a CFS qualification and many hours in uniform (I say nearly 100% as I looked and can't find any thing different - didn't go into VGS as no experience there). Most Mil instruction is specific to the type and a bit removed from PPL - but there are similarities. There is no reason why you couldn't apply (especially if you have the type rating?) but the bar is normally set high to catch those looking to leave the military but stay in flying instruction who already have experience/FI rating on type. As mentioned befor, the worst you could do is chat to Assent, Cobham or Babcock? It's not that easy to get a job as an A2 (CFS) with x,000s of hours, but, never give up.
You know you've become a 3rd rate Air Force when
Sorry. Wrong topic 
I'm a civvy new FI but would like to get into mil instructing perhaps in the future(long time need experience I know) but just doing some research.
Roland,
Nice one!
We had a couple of straight-through civvies on JEFTS when I went through in the early 90s. Great people and good instructors...but weak on certain key military skills, such as aeros, but pretty good at IF!!. Additionally, IMHO, it is vital to inculcate a military ethos into flying from first principles - from crewroom to cockpit.
Nice one!
We had a couple of straight-through civvies on JEFTS when I went through in the early 90s. Great people and good instructors...but weak on certain key military skills, such as aeros, but pretty good at IF!!. Additionally, IMHO, it is vital to inculcate a military ethos into flying from first principles - from crewroom to cockpit.