Voyager Plummets (Merged)
Isn't everyone as shocked as I am about this incident? The flagship AT/AAR fleet of RAF almost lost 200+ passengers and crew! The proposed cause is worthy of inclusion in an "airplane" movie, if it was not so serious. How much does this reflect on the whole PFI and the people who pushed from within for this hugely expensive "private raf" instead of cheaper, proven, options?
I am concerned that the problems run deep within the whole set-up. Please RAF, let's see the "private raf" have its great gloating publicity machine wound-up and the whole outfit knuckle-down to the basics of safe, productive flying, if that is possible from the alien monster that has been allowed to form within the RAF?
OAP
I am concerned that the problems run deep within the whole set-up. Please RAF, let's see the "private raf" have its great gloating publicity machine wound-up and the whole outfit knuckle-down to the basics of safe, productive flying, if that is possible from the alien monster that has been allowed to form within the RAF?
OAP
Maybe the Capt was moving his seat forward in anticipation of potential better photo opportunity but forgot that his seat left armrest was bigger than the right armrest due to the adjustment for operating the sidestick?
Schoolboy error, what a plonker!
More concerned with having a camera close by than concentrating on flying the aircraft.
Now if there were any injured pax, they know who to claim against?
Schoolboy error, what a plonker!
More concerned with having a camera close by than concentrating on flying the aircraft.
Now if there were any injured pax, they know who to claim against?
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The grounding..sorry, pause in Voyager operations which resulted from this event caused great disruption to UK forces, the Afgan drawdown and must have incurred enormous costs in charter fees alone. Is it conceivable that the authorities would have taken such action if they had been in possession of a frank account of events from the Captain?
On the same lines, if one examines earlier posts by certain regular contributors there is a stream of posts pointing to quite specific technical faults hinting at inside knowledge but not supported by anything in the public domain at that time, simultaneous with a firm, indeed aggressive, refusal to entertain the possibility that crew action may have been a factor. Would they care now to explain their reasoning?
On the same lines, if one examines earlier posts by certain regular contributors there is a stream of posts pointing to quite specific technical faults hinting at inside knowledge but not supported by anything in the public domain at that time, simultaneous with a firm, indeed aggressive, refusal to entertain the possibility that crew action may have been a factor. Would they care now to explain their reasoning?
Last edited by ShotOne; 21st Mar 2014 at 09:32.
More concerned with having a camera close by than concentrating on flying the aircraft.
OAP,
On the basis that the civil sector delivers a vast daily flying task, out of all proportion to anything the combined militaries of the world can muster, and does so with the sky-high safety figures so often quoted (reportedly involving no camera-induced fairground rides), would it not be advisable for the RAF's transport fleet to become MORE civilian in its approach? After all, these were 2 military pilots operating on a military-flagged sortie.
Not my view, you understand- just pointing out the gaping hole in the logic of your incessant complaint.
On the basis that the civil sector delivers a vast daily flying task, out of all proportion to anything the combined militaries of the world can muster, and does so with the sky-high safety figures so often quoted (reportedly involving no camera-induced fairground rides), would it not be advisable for the RAF's transport fleet to become MORE civilian in its approach? After all, these were 2 military pilots operating on a military-flagged sortie.
Not my view, you understand- just pointing out the gaping hole in the logic of your incessant complaint.
Easy Street, quite so. Mil use of civ best practice where applicable, is the sound basis that should used. However, my contention is that, in this instance "best practice" cannot have been used. Furthermore, the experiment that has developed a "private raf" combines some of the worst elements of mil ops and private entrepreneurship whereby the MOD are being fleeced while a glittering cloud of propaganda obscures reality.
I will say it again, the whole FSTA project has been a money making machine for interested parties.
OAP
I will say it again, the whole FSTA project has been a money making machine for interested parties.
OAP
lj101. Maybe you have a different view? Or, are you trolling? My views clearly given in many posts, are yours? Are you involved with the "private raf"?
BTW, your quote misrepresents my complete sentence.
OAP
BTW, your quote misrepresents my complete sentence.
OAP
OAP
I accept your contention, but may I ask why you think this to be the case? Do all civil A330 operators ban their crews from placing anything in the vicinity of the side stick?
However, my contention is that, in this instance "best practice" cannot have been used.
Thank you Roly. I cannot speak for any Airbus operator. However, the risks from inadvertent inputs on flying controls, and the elimination of such inputs, forms the basis of many simple flightdeck protocols and proceedures. This is basic stuff but, it requires the strict maintenance of those standards to be effective.
OAP
OAP
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: uk
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Murphy?
In the end it wasn't FBW, GIGO software, Airtanker modifications or any of the other speculative theories, it was just a human being and Murphy's law.
For all you aircrew out there, look, digest and thank whomsoever you like it wasn't you motoring that seat forward.
Surely now its RIP this thread.
For all you aircrew out there, look, digest and thank whomsoever you like it wasn't you motoring that seat forward.
Surely now its RIP this thread.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Somewhere near the Rhine
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst I have no knowledge of this occurrence at all, if, as has been suggested, the flight crew failed to own up to the true nature of what happened for some time, one might question the crew's perception of their local Just Culture.
The worse the outcome, the harder it is for management to apply it properly, especially when their higher management are clamouring for a scapegoat. Just Culture is as much about the organisation as it is the individuals involved. I hope that these questions aren't lost in the aftermath of the investigation.
The worse the outcome, the harder it is for management to apply it properly, especially when their higher management are clamouring for a scapegoat. Just Culture is as much about the organisation as it is the individuals involved. I hope that these questions aren't lost in the aftermath of the investigation.
Just Culture is about perception,if its your belief you don't have one,then you don't.The behaviour pre & post are key,was the risk of an error increased or compounded by the crews behaviour. The captain should have 'fessed up',but without knowing more about context I wouldn't throw the first stone.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OAP. Don't forget that the MAAIB and their SI took ATrS out of the loop immediately after this incident occurred. Also, against the aircraft manufacturer's advice, AOC 2 Group decided to ground the MIL fleet.
No 'Private RAF' involvement here.
I would agree with some your sentiment though. For example, how many hours on the Voyager A330 do the RAF crews on 10 and 101 Sqn have? My guess would be that you have RAF Voyager Captains and Co-Pilots flying this aircraft together with very little?
No 'Private RAF' involvement here.
I would agree with some your sentiment though. For example, how many hours on the Voyager A330 do the RAF crews on 10 and 101 Sqn have? My guess would be that you have RAF Voyager Captains and Co-Pilots flying this aircraft together with very little?
I would agree with some your sentiment though. For example, how many hours on the Voyager A330 do the RAF crews on 10 and 101 Sqn have? My guess would be that you have RAF Voyager Captains and Co-Pilots flying this aircraft together with very little?
