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Voyager Plummets (Merged)

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Voyager Plummets (Merged)

Old 18th Dec 2018, 09:56
  #1021 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beardy View Post
I disagree. The higher up the stick you hold it, the finer control inputs you make for the same hand displacement, think of the geometry of a lever (which it is.) You also get to rest your forearm on the armrest not leaving any muscles in tension. I was always surprised when young pilots held the stick at its base. They in turn were surprised at the finesse they were capable of when they changed their grip.
Sorry, but you’ve totally misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I think after many years and many thousands of hours, most of us have worked out that you can achieve finer control holding the thing higher rather than lower. And you can do that quite comfortably by holding it in the way Airbus clearly intended, and using little more than finger and thumb at the top of the stick to manipulate it. It’s just that the diagram seems to put your wrist a good way higher than would be comfortable or practical for most regular humans. At any rate, we’ve departed some way from the topic at hand, so I’ll leave it at that.

Last edited by itsnotthatbloodyhard; 18th Dec 2018 at 10:36.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 10:54
  #1022 (permalink)  
 
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Reconstruction of seat, jammed camera and sidestick

https://www.isasi.org/Documents/libr...pitch_down.pdf

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Old 18th Dec 2018, 16:10
  #1023 (permalink)  
 
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beardy
I am surprised that you used a clipboard instead of the clip on the table to hold any paperwork and also surprised that the clipboard wasn't on the table nor in the document stowage on the cockpit wall. Perhaps most surprising is that neither you, nor your instructor submitted an occurrence report of any type.


Hi Beardy,
It was a fixed based sim session focussing on systems early on in the TR course. The clipboard was for me to make notes. As I said, it wasn't meaningfully comparable to the incident in question and I mentioned it only to highlight the possibility of losing SA on the position a loose item and the startle/surprise effect of the aircraft performing a (seemingly uncommanded) nose down pitch when I moved my seat.

I appreciate there are other places to put bits of paper in the flight deck and on that occasion, I used a clipboard. I don't think I am the only person ever to do this in an airbus.

You might also be surprised to learn that a military flight deck often has a lot more paperwork on it than many civil ones due to the different nature of the task.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 17:19
  #1024 (permalink)  
 
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jimjim1, thanks for the 360 degree Airbus link, and especially for the pic recreating the jammed camera scenario. If ever there was a case of one picture versus a thousand words it is surely that one!

Interesting too that the final recommendation was:-
If possible, implement measures that could help prevent the placing of loose articles in close proximity to the side-stick.
Prevent is probably impossible. Actively discourage by training and appropriate marking aft of the side stick far more achievable I'd suggest.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 17:51
  #1025 (permalink)  

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The armrest in the the picture is mis-aligned out of any reasonable position for its proper intended use.

(My comment above was intended to entertain, but only using pieces of reality snapped toghther in a funny way. It is absurd, but a consequence of logic shown above, I am beying just a messenger.)

The more is revealed, the less makes sense. Reality is sometimes stranger than fiction, but to suggest a technical modification - there is not enough underlying evidence.

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Old 18th Dec 2018, 18:36
  #1026 (permalink)  
 
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I was not sure of the provenance of the image that I posted above in
Voyager Plummets (Merged)
I have now read/skimmed the Service Inquiry and the image above is actually included in it - at apparently lower resolution in the public facing .pdf.

Here are further seat and sidestick images from the Service Inquiry





https://www.gov.uk/government/public...-february-2014
Index to all documents

https://assets.publishing.service.go...t_1_Ex_Pub.pdf
First image

https://assets.publishing.service.go...t_2_Ex_Pub.pdf
Second Image
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 20:26
  #1027 (permalink)  
 
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See Post #746
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 22:34
  #1028 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Top Bunk Tester View Post
See Post #746
Took some finding, a link to the page would have helped. For others wishing to view Post 746, it can be found here :-

Voyager Plummets (Merged)

How's your itch TBT? I don't know the answers to your questions, but suspect they can be generally covered by the OMG syndrome. He motors his seat forward to adopt the correct position that he should have been at all along, only for the nose to pitch sharply down and various alarms simultaneously set off. Perhaps some would have been more alert and quickly realised that the side stick itself felt wrong, while others are merely satisfied with casting the first stone. Whatever the answer to your itch, the accident was already being enacted. Better to have not perpetrated it in the first place, ie stay at the controls, and if you have to take some snaps, sorry pictures, wait for the co to return then hand control over to him. When you've finished taking them return the camera to your Flight Bag. Whatever you do don't place it on the Side Stick ledge, which will hopefully be clearly marked to dissuade you from placing anything there.

I'm pretty certain the defendant would ruefully agree with all that. Now just a case of convincing others...
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 00:38
  #1029 (permalink)  
 
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Chug, apologies for lack of link. Maybe I need to get some steroid cream for my itch. Nothing further add really that hasn’t already been said, there are two sides to every incident/accident. But, like Brexit, it is unlikely you will ever convince the other side to capitulate. I am however pleased to see that the disproportionate sentence for the offence to which the defendant pleaded guilty has been overturned on appeal. The remaining counts that were returned not guilty have to be respected if nothing else.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 14:09
  #1030 (permalink)  
 
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TBT:-
there are two sides to every incident/accident.
I think we are getting to the nub of things right there. There are two sides to every charge, prosecution and defence; and a great deal has been made pro and con that already. How can there be two sides of every incident/accident? They either happened or they didn't. If they did there can surely be only one 'side', to make every effort to avoid a repeat? There should be total agreement about that amongst 'the professionals who fly and support military aviation' (a condensed version of the PPRuNe Military Aviation Forum dedication)? That is the very foundation of Flight Safety, a notion that seems to have been forgotten amidst the general ballyhoo.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 17:22
  #1031 (permalink)  
 
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By two sides I mean one person’s recollection of an incident against the indesputable facts of the incident. We only have to look at ground witness statements to any accident you care to mention and you will find that statements vary vastly eg it was on fire; bits were falling off before it plunged, plumetted or fell; the engine sounded rough etc Whilst one would not expect highly experienced aircrew to express such wild views it can happen and they would all swear that their recollections were facts. Could this be what happened here? The handling pilot’s recollection of events was wildly at odds with the facts? This, of course, would mitigate the integrity question. However I still can’t reconcile this against physical interaction of armrest, camera, stick and arm/hand. Then the question of why were the images deliberately deleted from the camera’s memory card. However I’m just spitballing and have to recognise and respect the verdict of the court.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 19:31
  #1032 (permalink)  
 
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An aircraft accident will always be the subject of an SI. This SI concluded that the defendant's camera had been driven into the side stick by the seat arm rest when it was motored forward. The fact that the camera had been placed in such a position to enable that to happen, and that the seat had not been already forward in the 'at the controls' position was the basis of the negligence charge to which he pleaded guilty. So much for the 'indisputable' facts.

He was also charged with perjury and making false record, to which he pleaded not guilty and was found not guilty. As you say, respect the verdict. So much for the 'itches'.

What bothers me about all this is the seeming lack of any 'there but for the Grace of God' reaction by other aircrew posting here. One pilot has had the moral courage to come forward and say that a similar occurrence happened to him, albeit in a ground simulator. Others have derided the notion that anything like it has ever happened to any other airbus crew, ie a loose object being driven towards the sidestick by the seat arm rest, ever. Even if that were true, this one accident should be enough to alert everyone to this Swiss cheese baited mouse trap. The SI calls for some form of mitigation and it has been postulated here; cheap, easy, and hopefully effective. Well, let's see.

A very frightening accident came close to being a tragically fatal one, saved indeed by the splendid self preservation logic of the Voyager itself. We don't get many such gift horses handed to us by aviation, and it behoves us all to learn as much as possible from it; whatever our role, whatever our job, be we civvie or Service. I suspect that one man at least has learned a lot, and it would be rather more rewarding for the rest of us to consider what we should learn and perhaps change our habits accordingly.
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Old 19th Dec 2018, 20:16
  #1033 (permalink)  
 
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I think we are in danger of missing a really good opportunity here.

Just as Princess Diana (as well as Dodi Fayed and Henri Paul) ought to feature on Seat Belt posters, this Pilot ought to be on a Career Continuation poster, pointing out that if you want the big money all of the time, then you need to behave, all of the time.

Captain Sullenberger: "I've got 40 years in the air, but in the end, I'm going to be judged on 208 seconds."

That's from the movie, rather than real life, but the principle is valid. You don't need to earn the money sometimes, you need to earn it all of time.
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