What's the future of the Red Arrows?
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"The country is totally bankrupt, people are simply in denial about it.
If the country was totally bankrupt, the UK would not be giving
Foreign Aid to other countries.
If the country was totally bankrupt, the UK would not be giving
Foreign Aid to other countries.
Hangarshuffle
You missed off HMS Victory ..... although the MOD did bung the new owners (HMS Victory Preservation Trust) £25 million as part of the transfer deal.
Curious how this now works given it is still a commissioned ship of the RN.
You missed off HMS Victory ..... although the MOD did bung the new owners (HMS Victory Preservation Trust) £25 million as part of the transfer deal.
Curious how this now works given it is still a commissioned ship of the RN.
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Saying it again.
The Govt. are in denial we are bankrupt (it suits them to as they need to be re-elected), the whole country is. The whole country is living on tick, and eventually the bill will have to be paid off.
True about the civil aid bit its something the PM very strongly seems to believe in because he thinks its morally correct to do so and it buys us kudos for the future, and he sees it as an investment for the future but he is still giving away money we do not have.
A compromise from me then. Make the arrows a defensive squadron with proven capability to do something useful in time of national crisis (i.e. shoot down or attack whoever does harm towards us). Bring in some commercial sponsorship for the display days.
You've got to show or make some sort of concession or compromise or you will be squashed. And no-one will care.
True about the civil aid bit its something the PM very strongly seems to believe in because he thinks its morally correct to do so and it buys us kudos for the future, and he sees it as an investment for the future but he is still giving away money we do not have.
A compromise from me then. Make the arrows a defensive squadron with proven capability to do something useful in time of national crisis (i.e. shoot down or attack whoever does harm towards us). Bring in some commercial sponsorship for the display days.
You've got to show or make some sort of concession or compromise or you will be squashed. And no-one will care.
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Wrathmonk fair comment. Only thing I would say Victory is what now having staff paid by private commercial firms, not public sector servants? This was a pay off sweetner then? Must have been. A 25 million kiss off? Perhaps that is what it sees as the future for the reds then, similar arrangement to say, Virgin or something? I could see that happening.
Im not being clear. I mean the Govt would see the future of paying a kiss off to a private venture who take on the RA? Keep the name and the airframes, use ex RAF air and ground crew?
I couldn't see that working to be honest.
Im not being clear. I mean the Govt would see the future of paying a kiss off to a private venture who take on the RA? Keep the name and the airframes, use ex RAF air and ground crew?
I couldn't see that working to be honest.
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Bankrupt?
Hangarshuffle, your point, whatever it may be, might have more chance of reaching the desired audience if you used the correct words.
The UK is not in fact Bankrupt, but that would certainly be a good option for the state of our finances.
Imagine, if you can, what being bankrupt would mean.
Let's start with the aircraft carriers. We can't afford them, so cancel the deal. No penalty payments to anyone as the contract was with HMG who have gone under.
No massive shortfall in pensions, that was an arrangement that all you retired civil servants, NHS staff & members of the armed forces, had with the old HMG.
No pension pot to fill, no shortage of money.
New contracts all round. The PFI mess can be sorted out overnight by bankruptcy. Just don't pay.
Let the companies take HMG (2014 Ltd) to court. They can say it's nothing to do with them.
After all, the government choose the Judges, so we are sure to see a decision go in favour of whoever is in power.
In civvy street you see this all the time. Companies go bust leaving a string of debt to HMRC & others. same people start a new company, doing the same stuff, from the same offices next week, without the burden of old debts.
As it works so well for private industry, why not for government?
The UK is not in fact Bankrupt, but that would certainly be a good option for the state of our finances.
Imagine, if you can, what being bankrupt would mean.
Let's start with the aircraft carriers. We can't afford them, so cancel the deal. No penalty payments to anyone as the contract was with HMG who have gone under.
No massive shortfall in pensions, that was an arrangement that all you retired civil servants, NHS staff & members of the armed forces, had with the old HMG.
No pension pot to fill, no shortage of money.
New contracts all round. The PFI mess can be sorted out overnight by bankruptcy. Just don't pay.
Let the companies take HMG (2014 Ltd) to court. They can say it's nothing to do with them.
After all, the government choose the Judges, so we are sure to see a decision go in favour of whoever is in power.
In civvy street you see this all the time. Companies go bust leaving a string of debt to HMRC & others. same people start a new company, doing the same stuff, from the same offices next week, without the burden of old debts.
As it works so well for private industry, why not for government?
Originally Posted by Quote
Are there 22 airworthy Hunters - well I only asked......................
Well there are about 10 in a hangar a Scampton, there's at least one at North Weald and I think the rest are at Exeter. So could be done I reckon. Assuming you mean The Loop.
Well there are about 10 in a hangar a Scampton, there's at least one at North Weald and I think the rest are at Exeter. So could be done I reckon. Assuming you mean The Loop.
But, with an additional 14 airworthy examples based in Europe (2 in Holland, 2 in France, 7 in Switzerland & 3 in Sweden) it could be done
Really? That's "fact" is it?? With counties like Switzerland, Indonesia; Saudi; Italy France able to maintain a display team, you think the UK should be relegated to a 3rd rate Air Force??
More seriously, this thread is reflecting some real truths. We can't, actually, afford the luxury of the "World's best aerobatic team" (or whatever hype you want to put on it). The recent SI illustrates how, as well as the aforementioned arrogance, undermanning and lack of funds has created an organisation that is a danger to its own members and the general public.
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The recent SI illustrates how, as well as the aforementioned arrogance, undermanning and lack of funds has created an organisation that is a danger to its own members and the general public.
More seriously, this thread is reflecting some real truths. We can't, actually, afford the luxury of the "World's best aerobatic team" (or whatever hype you want to put on it). The recent SI illustrates how, as well as the aforementioned arrogance, undermanning and lack of funds has created an organisation that is a danger to its own members and the general public.
I haven't read the full SI, so I would be intrigued to get your view on which "rules" were broken?
Now as for undermanning and lack of funds, there I have to agree with you, but that applies to almost every aircraft type across all 3 services. That's what comes of salami slicing manpower, taking "savings measures" against servicing and spares, moving to a "just-in-time" spares policy regardless of how much additional stress that places on those that have to implement it and hollowing out Defence generally through contractorization and use of "business practice" across key areas.
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In my last 3 years in the Service - I had to write (Draft for ACOS) annually the case for retaining RAFAT.
- RAFAT contribute more to defence diplomacy than all of the other Display Teams/events mentioned on this or an other similar threads.
- RAFAT contribute more to defence diplomacy than all of the other Display Teams/events mentioned on this or an other similar threads.
Obviously you believe that the RAF is so arrogant that it would not act upon any recommendations?
How many of the Director Internal Audit's 19 recommendations were implemented (June 1996)? None. #13 alone would have prevented the need for Haddon-Cave. Two or three others would have avoided the financial black hole.
You believe that the Air Force hierarchy would just allow or be allowed to put team members and the general public in "danger"?
All very repetitive and unpalatable, but simple fact. I suggest you not only read the full SI report, but also compare the recommendations with (a) mandated policy and (b) previous reports.
Why make 56 recommendations that are mandated policy? What does that tell you? What does the need to repeat recommendations from previous reports say about the MoD's ability to learn lessons and adhere to its own regulations? It says it cannot be trusted to police itself, and the system is not fit for purpose.
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Terrible demise for such a young lad. Let's just hope the RAF/MoD/UKGov get all the "Should have beens" sorted so that this can never happen again. I dread to think what may have happened had the accidental ejection taken place amid close formation flying or, God forbid, over a city. 
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In my last 3 years in the Service - I had to write (Draft for ACOS) annually the case for retaining RAFAT.
- RAFAT contribute more to defence diplomacy than all of the other Display Teams/events mentioned on this or an other similar threads.
- RAFAT contribute more to defence diplomacy than all of the other Display Teams/events mentioned on this or an other similar threads.
The Wiki answer:
The United Kingdom identified defence diplomacy as one of the military’s eight defence missions, and aims to “dispel hostility, build and maintain trust and assist in the development of democratically accountable armed forces” to make a “significant contribution to conflict prevention and resolution.”[5] Defence diplomacy is often developed and implemented in close coordination with the foreign and development ministries to ensure coherence and focus across government.
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Have things changed since then? The hassle over Voyager, Tutor and RJ would
suggest something has!
suggest something has!
Suspicion breeds confidence
Lets keep it common between all the services. There is no justification for keeping an dedicated (FULL TIME) aerobatic display team. Only part time/volunteer will do. Historic flights are different, they exist for heritage reasons. The Reds have no heritage and exist entirely to serve their own needs. This ancient dinosaur should be finally put to rest and the money spent on the front line
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The Reds have no heritage and exist entirely to serve their own needs.
On a slightly more serious note, it is not the Red Arrows' own heritage that is at stake. They represent to the world the best of the RAF, the British military and our country. If you don't believe me, ask the UK ambassadors to the countries they are invited to display in. They don't just do Defence diplomacy.