UK Maritime Patrol Aircraft - An Urgent Requirement
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Jayand
Your post made me think of ostriches and head-in-sand.
Another thought was loaves and butter. The polititians these days seem to behave like ostriches and only see what they want to see, and deny everything they don't!
Equally, they never seem to give the MOD/NHS/Police (or whatever) enough "butter" to properly cover all the slices in the "loaf". Nor will they cut the size of the loaf to match the available butter......call me cynical but I think it has always been thus, only thing is that we never seem to learn from past mistakes.
For my part, I believe that there are some responsibilities that only the State must do and that it can only ignore at its peril and that includes defence. Many of the other "responsibilities" such as pensions/welfare/social services etc. could (and some say should) be the responsibility of the individual citizen. Where you draw the line depends on what kind of politics you believe in, and (so far thankfully) we live in a free country.
MB
Your post made me think of ostriches and head-in-sand.
Another thought was loaves and butter. The polititians these days seem to behave like ostriches and only see what they want to see, and deny everything they don't!
Equally, they never seem to give the MOD/NHS/Police (or whatever) enough "butter" to properly cover all the slices in the "loaf". Nor will they cut the size of the loaf to match the available butter......call me cynical but I think it has always been thus, only thing is that we never seem to learn from past mistakes.
For my part, I believe that there are some responsibilities that only the State must do and that it can only ignore at its peril and that includes defence. Many of the other "responsibilities" such as pensions/welfare/social services etc. could (and some say should) be the responsibility of the individual citizen. Where you draw the line depends on what kind of politics you believe in, and (so far thankfully) we live in a free country.
MB
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CFP Greenwood Seedcorn...update
I've just received an email from an old buddy at CFB Greenwood. He's a long time CP-140 operator. Part of his message reads as follows:
Mixed emotions actually. Proud certainly, definitely humble at reading such kind words but also p*ssed off with our bl**dy short sighted politicians.
We as Canadians have benefited from your Nimrod loss. Just to let you know that the people you folks have sent to Canada to maintain a cadre of LRPA people have been outstanding (would I think anything else coming from your community?). They have represented the UK very well. You would be proud.
I understand the same applies to the emigres we sent to all reaches of the (former) colonies. Certainly the guys at Jax seem to be in positions of some seniority (Chief Instructor etc) - not bad for having to cope with a foreign language as well! 
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Nimrod's Genesis
Nimrod's Genesis: RAF Maritime Patrol Projects and Weapons since 1945 by Chris Gibson
I've just spent the morning reading what appears to me to be an authoritative and illuminating book on this very controversial part of our defence effort. I'll be very interested to hear what those actually involved in this field have to say?
I've just spent the morning reading what appears to me to be an authoritative and illuminating book on this very controversial part of our defence effort. I'll be very interested to hear what those actually involved in this field have to say?
163,
You might be better off looking/asking on this pprune thread:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...ng-weapon.html
However, most of the subject matter was/is highly classified and people will be reluctant to discuss much on an open forum such as this.
You might be better off looking/asking on this pprune thread:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...ng-weapon.html
However, most of the subject matter was/is highly classified and people will be reluctant to discuss much on an open forum such as this.
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No state secrets required!
Biggus
The book specifically does not cover tactics etc so no need to give away secrets on here! It focuses solely on the policy directives, political manoeuvring etc that resulted in the various RAF maritime patrol aircraft projects that saw the light of day post 1945. Some actually flew some just never left the paper; as I previously mentioned input from those who were there would be interesting.
The book specifically does not cover tactics etc so no need to give away secrets on here! It focuses solely on the policy directives, political manoeuvring etc that resulted in the various RAF maritime patrol aircraft projects that saw the light of day post 1945. Some actually flew some just never left the paper; as I previously mentioned input from those who were there would be interesting.
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By Jove ! I think they are starting to get it!!
Putin has made the nuclear question even more complicated ? and Trident may not be the answer | Paul Mason | Comment is free | The Guardian
"So, the first awkward question is: if Trident plus Nimrod was a “minimum” defence option against a Russia that had given up aggression, how is Trident minus Nimrod still an adequate system, given this increased Russian submarine activity?"
Putin has made the nuclear question even more complicated ? and Trident may not be the answer | Paul Mason | Comment is free | The Guardian
"So, the first awkward question is: if Trident plus Nimrod was a “minimum” defence option against a Russia that had given up aggression, how is Trident minus Nimrod still an adequate system, given this increased Russian submarine activity?"
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A case for NATO MPA to patrol long African Med. coastline.
Good article and for once I agree in a small way with Farage.
Farage: Cameron must take some blame for migrant deaths in Mediterranean | Politics | The Guardian
RAF and other NATO members did bomb seven bells out of Libya, partially helping the rebels to achieve what we have now-the destruction of a functioning state and creating an almighty ungovernable violent rabble with thousands of miles of lawless coastline at the gate of civilization (Europe)which they cant seem to control.
From which attacks by Islamic terror organizations will spring eventually. At present this coastline seems to be the springboard for thousands of displaced people to try and reach Europe for a better life. Hundreds seem to be drowning in the attempt on a weekly basis now.
Wiser heads of European countries could perhaps have figured this out a few years back....still, we had CameronandSarcozy.
My badly made point is, perhaps a few potential leaders are hinting in this Grad article we may have to do more to either stop or help this growing band of Med crossers. My long shot guess whats left of UK mil somehow get redrafted back to somehow do something.
Hercules aircraft as spotter planes (because they have the range and endurance to run from Gibraltar? The remaining LPD as a picker-upper of flotsam? In conjunction with other NATO forces?
Something's got to be done. How many will drown before we help?
* Ok, not thousands of miles but a bleeding good stretch of coastline.
Farage: Cameron must take some blame for migrant deaths in Mediterranean | Politics | The Guardian
RAF and other NATO members did bomb seven bells out of Libya, partially helping the rebels to achieve what we have now-the destruction of a functioning state and creating an almighty ungovernable violent rabble with thousands of miles of lawless coastline at the gate of civilization (Europe)which they cant seem to control.
From which attacks by Islamic terror organizations will spring eventually. At present this coastline seems to be the springboard for thousands of displaced people to try and reach Europe for a better life. Hundreds seem to be drowning in the attempt on a weekly basis now.
Wiser heads of European countries could perhaps have figured this out a few years back....still, we had CameronandSarcozy.
My badly made point is, perhaps a few potential leaders are hinting in this Grad article we may have to do more to either stop or help this growing band of Med crossers. My long shot guess whats left of UK mil somehow get redrafted back to somehow do something.
Hercules aircraft as spotter planes (because they have the range and endurance to run from Gibraltar? The remaining LPD as a picker-upper of flotsam? In conjunction with other NATO forces?
Something's got to be done. How many will drown before we help?
* Ok, not thousands of miles but a bleeding good stretch of coastline.
UK mil could only provide very limited support I'd say (in time and asset sense). I suspect the next UK Gov (whatever flavour) will offer a small sum of money towards increasing the EU Med effort (which is sub-contracted out to tender so civvy aircraft I think?). No doubt a big fanfare will be made about our 'generous' cash contribution by the next PM.
Last edited by Sandy Parts; 20th Apr 2015 at 14:06.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
RAF and other NATO members did bomb seven bells out of Libya,. . .ungovernable violent rabble with thousands of miles of lawless coastline at the gate of civilization (Europe)which they cant seem to control.. . .
the springboard for thousands of displaced people to try and reach Europe for a better life.
the springboard for thousands of displaced people to try and reach Europe for a better life.
In other words, when we intervene, or rather before we consider intervening, we need to make plans for the inevitable influx.
One curiosity, given the violence we have delivered on their heads, is why they then want to come here. Come here now that is rather than come before we bombed them.
One curiosity, given the violence we have delivered on their heads, is why they then want to come here. Come here now that is rather than come before we bombed them.
In this case it's groups from all over Africa using Libya as a gateway as it's (a) Close to Italy and (b) Pretty lawless.
Some may fit within the asylum seeker/refugee designation, but most are economic migrants.
Some may fit within the asylum seeker/refugee designation, but most are economic migrants.
RAF and other NATO members did bomb seven bells out of Libya, partially helping the rebels to achieve what we have now-the destruction of a functioning state and creating an almighty ungovernable violent rabble with thousands of miles of lawless coastline at the gate of civilization (Europe)which they cant seem to control.
From which attacks by Islamic terror organizations will spring eventually. At present this coastline seems to be the springboard for thousands of displaced people to try and reach Europe for a better life. Hundreds seem to be drowning in the attempt on a weekly basis now.
Wiser heads of European countries could perhaps have figured this out a few years back....still, we had CameronandSarcozy.
From which attacks by Islamic terror organizations will spring eventually. At present this coastline seems to be the springboard for thousands of displaced people to try and reach Europe for a better life. Hundreds seem to be drowning in the attempt on a weekly basis now.
Wiser heads of European countries could perhaps have figured this out a few years back....still, we had CameronandSarcozy.
Something's got to be done. How many will die before we help?
Back in the 90s I remember a defence study which attempted to look at the future in 2015. It was a NATO event and although I haven't dug out the material in years, the one thing it did suggest was that mass movement of refugees / displaced persons / economic migrants from Africa to Europe was going to be a major feature. None of that was predicated on us getting involved in Iraq / Afghanistan / Libya (delete as appropriate). This has been coming long before that.......
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
NaB, what you say was the raison d'etre for NATO wheeling its infrastructure and command systems to the southern flank as the eastern front on the IGB and ECO had ceased to exist.
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Thread drift I know but.....many years ago as part of the MODs push to educate its people I attended a lecture on the Sources Of Future conflict , It concentrated mainly on Environmental change and the effect of mass migration. The speaker emphasised that as mother nature changes its MO over decades, net migration will slowly increase,however any threat of geopolitical upheavel would have an immediate and potentially catastrophic economic effect on stable regional neighbours.
We seen this coming, we educated our people, we allowed it to happen and still we are outraged when it comes to pass!
I also participated on the Investors in people accreditation. So a dramatic waste of money on both fronts.
To put this thread back on a sensible track crawl - Maritime Merlins are crap. ( Except when they bring the fresh milk and mail)
http://cirrus.ucsd.edu/~pierce/midea...d_conflict.pdf
Migration
There is considerable evidence from the behaviour of past societies to show that
large-scale migrations of people have followed episodes of environmental change.
With the rapid increase in the world’s population over the last century and the
location of large numbers of people in environmentally marginal regions, it is likely
that climate change will drive future migrations and produce environmental refugees.
Clearly, a large-scale movement of people has the potential to destabilize political,
economic and social systems in neighbouring countries with consequent lowered
thresholds for conflict.
We seen this coming, we educated our people, we allowed it to happen and still we are outraged when it comes to pass!
I also participated on the Investors in people accreditation. So a dramatic waste of money on both fronts.
To put this thread back on a sensible track crawl - Maritime Merlins are crap. ( Except when they bring the fresh milk and mail)
http://cirrus.ucsd.edu/~pierce/midea...d_conflict.pdf
Migration
There is considerable evidence from the behaviour of past societies to show that
large-scale migrations of people have followed episodes of environmental change.
With the rapid increase in the world’s population over the last century and the
location of large numbers of people in environmentally marginal regions, it is likely
that climate change will drive future migrations and produce environmental refugees.
Clearly, a large-scale movement of people has the potential to destabilize political,
economic and social systems in neighbouring countries with consequent lowered
thresholds for conflict.
Last edited by Bannock; 20th Apr 2015 at 19:15. Reason: rubbish cutting and pasting
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NaBoffin Good post, agree with you - lots of handwringing now after the event by the same people who were handwringing to precipitate the event a few years ago.
To get back on thread
I must agree with you Bannock - not necessarily the aircraft and operators, but the concept IMHO.
To get back on thread
To put this thread back on a sensible track crawl - Maritime Merlins are crap.