UK Maritime Patrol Aircraft - An Urgent Requirement
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Afghanistan, Philippines, Mali, Libya, UAE, Oman, Sudan, Iraq etc etc then? 
Afghanistan - a roaring success eh Roland - and we were never more than a pimple on the a*** of the yanks - who had to bail us out in Helmand IIRC
Mali - that was 99% French
Libya - again we needed back up from our cousins
Iraq - a long time ago and again not exactly a brilliant success
UAE , Oman & Sudan - we haven't been there in years in force
Philippines - again a very small contribution to the overall effort
Too many British servicemen have paid the ultimate price since 1990 to bolster the politicians delusion that we are a serious player everywhere
Afghanistan - a roaring success eh Roland - and we were never more than a pimple on the a*** of the yanks - who had to bail us out in Helmand IIRC
Mali - that was 99% French
Libya - again we needed back up from our cousins
Iraq - a long time ago and again not exactly a brilliant success
UAE , Oman & Sudan - we haven't been there in years in force
Philippines - again a very small contribution to the overall effort
Too many British servicemen have paid the ultimate price since 1990 to bolster the politicians delusion that we are a serious player everywhere
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: england
Age: 61
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
err...sorry to break this to some...THIS COUNTRY IS NOT BROKE!!
sure, different depts., councils, cities blah blah have different budgets and priorities but lets take my ahem "beautiful" city of NOTTINGHAM as an example.
A tram system consisting of two lines, with a third in planning at a projected cost of close to 800 MILLION QUID!!!!
Ask anyone from around these parts if this represents a good use of capital...disregarding the cost to business in lost revenue and overall disruption over tht last 10+ years.
every summer our glorious leaders turn the market square into "NOTTINGHAM BY THE SEA"....by shipping in a few tons of sand to form a "beach" and erecting a oversized paddling pool....this rubbish costs thousands.
every city in this land has examples of this sort of folly....all paid for in taxes which could be better utilised.
the sad fact is after many years of relative peace....discounting our middle east "adventures"....people at the top AND bottom no longer even care about defence, BUT, this country is not broke
FISH.
sure, different depts., councils, cities blah blah have different budgets and priorities but lets take my ahem "beautiful" city of NOTTINGHAM as an example.
A tram system consisting of two lines, with a third in planning at a projected cost of close to 800 MILLION QUID!!!!
Ask anyone from around these parts if this represents a good use of capital...disregarding the cost to business in lost revenue and overall disruption over tht last 10+ years.
every summer our glorious leaders turn the market square into "NOTTINGHAM BY THE SEA"....by shipping in a few tons of sand to form a "beach" and erecting a oversized paddling pool....this rubbish costs thousands.
every city in this land has examples of this sort of folly....all paid for in taxes which could be better utilised.
the sad fact is after many years of relative peace....discounting our middle east "adventures"....people at the top AND bottom no longer even care about defence, BUT, this country is not broke
FISH.
Mr fish,
Of course this country is not broke, it's one of the wealthiest nations on the planet. But it DOES have a deficit, i.e the Government spends annually more than it receives. You can't reduce a deficit without cost cutting and budget reductions, hence every Council in this country has seen huge reductions in their annual Government grant, a large percentage of their annual income.
If Nottingham decides to spend it's money on the things you describe, and you object to that, vote for different councillors, cos it's them that spends the money, or maybe even become a councillor yourself?
If people at the top and bottom of this country no longer even care about defence then I suggest that we wouldn't have the fifth best resourced defence force in the world... which we do.
Of course this country is not broke, it's one of the wealthiest nations on the planet. But it DOES have a deficit, i.e the Government spends annually more than it receives. You can't reduce a deficit without cost cutting and budget reductions, hence every Council in this country has seen huge reductions in their annual Government grant, a large percentage of their annual income.
If Nottingham decides to spend it's money on the things you describe, and you object to that, vote for different councillors, cos it's them that spends the money, or maybe even become a councillor yourself?
If people at the top and bottom of this country no longer even care about defence then I suggest that we wouldn't have the fifth best resourced defence force in the world... which we do.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: england
Age: 61
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if the above is true...where is the MPA?
as I suggest....millions spent countywide on rubbish schemes and still no aircraft...and as I understand it, no urgency.
i'll take your point and not vote for the "inland seaside" this may....that should stop em.
FISH.
as I suggest....millions spent countywide on rubbish schemes and still no aircraft...and as I understand it, no urgency.
i'll take your point and not vote for the "inland seaside" this may....that should stop em.
FISH.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Waiting to return to the Loire.
Age: 54
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately, the RealPolitik of Defence is that it is only partly there for the purpose of defending the Realm.
Other key factors are:
A driver for capital & revenue spend - which drives employment in some areas - which brings back tax - and which secures votes.
A measure to counter unemployment in some key deprived areas. Some of our most famous and successful infantry regiments (or Battalions as we now call them in the new model army) recruit from some Poor places.
It is also a pride thing (Good Pride - History, heritage and tradition // Bad Pride or Hubris - Vanity projects or excursions to 'Statesman' like a politician.
LRMPA is never going to scream 'statesmanlike' when compared to pointy planes, bomber subs, SF and loads of Tommy Atkins who can be photographed at the stage-managed photo calls in sandy places.
I beleive that a number of posters are trying to assign Honour, Wisdom and Open-Mindedness to a bunch of politicians who are only interested on short-termist projects to keep them in power and on the gravy train.
I am waiting to see how the Home Secretary is going to argue that slashing the police budgets is going to keep us all safer from terrorism here at home - because let's face it; Sec Def does not seem to be standing up for Her Majesty's Armed Forces.
PS - Making Defence pay for the Bomber SSBNs and their cargoes of point-to-point delivered Sunshine has also raped the budgets somewhat
Other key factors are:
A driver for capital & revenue spend - which drives employment in some areas - which brings back tax - and which secures votes.
A measure to counter unemployment in some key deprived areas. Some of our most famous and successful infantry regiments (or Battalions as we now call them in the new model army) recruit from some Poor places.
It is also a pride thing (Good Pride - History, heritage and tradition // Bad Pride or Hubris - Vanity projects or excursions to 'Statesman' like a politician.
LRMPA is never going to scream 'statesmanlike' when compared to pointy planes, bomber subs, SF and loads of Tommy Atkins who can be photographed at the stage-managed photo calls in sandy places.
I beleive that a number of posters are trying to assign Honour, Wisdom and Open-Mindedness to a bunch of politicians who are only interested on short-termist projects to keep them in power and on the gravy train.
I am waiting to see how the Home Secretary is going to argue that slashing the police budgets is going to keep us all safer from terrorism here at home - because let's face it; Sec Def does not seem to be standing up for Her Majesty's Armed Forces.
PS - Making Defence pay for the Bomber SSBNs and their cargoes of point-to-point delivered Sunshine has also raped the budgets somewhat
Last edited by Finnpog; 10th Jan 2015 at 18:41. Reason: Adding the Post Script
Heathrow Harry
I know you've posted some crap in the past but your lack of understanding of what is happening right now is stupendous. I would rebut your rebuttals but it would be pointless. I guess you just don't know what the UK committed to the Philippines, Mali, Libya (right or wrong), Iraq (right now, not ages ago) or to the rest of the ME. As for Afghanistan, we still deployed a force of some 10000 personnel and sustained them several thousand miles from home, equipped them with UAVs, helos, ISTAR, fast air, armour etc etc for several years. There aren't many other countries in the world with that capability!
I know you've posted some crap in the past but your lack of understanding of what is happening right now is stupendous. I would rebut your rebuttals but it would be pointless. I guess you just don't know what the UK committed to the Philippines, Mali, Libya (right or wrong), Iraq (right now, not ages ago) or to the rest of the ME. As for Afghanistan, we still deployed a force of some 10000 personnel and sustained them several thousand miles from home, equipped them with UAVs, helos, ISTAR, fast air, armour etc etc for several years. There aren't many other countries in the world with that capability!
Which politicos?
There's the small matter of a general election to come before any SDSR.
Cameron may know what capability was lost, and even be incensed about it, but what do Milliband, Balls, even Farage and Sturgeon, know, or care, about the issue?
There's the small matter of a general election to come before any SDSR.
Cameron may know what capability was lost, and even be incensed about it, but what do Milliband, Balls, even Farage and Sturgeon, know, or care, about the issue?
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Far North of Watford
Age: 82
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like the look of the P1. Four engines, excellent performance and range, lots of room inside and out, designed and built from scratch for its intended military purpose, Japanese ingenuity, attention to detail and construction standard.
We make Jap cars in UK. Perhaps we can do the same with the P1. There is a large potential market in Europe.
We make Jap cars in UK. Perhaps we can do the same with the P1. There is a large potential market in Europe.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Outside the Matz
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A quick search to check what India and the Australians are paying for P8 vice the P1 unit cost is interesting. If Mr Wiki is to be believed , P1 comes in a hell of a lot cheaper. Lets face it, its also a hell of a lot more capable. IMHO Betty.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Far North of Watford
Age: 82
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My "hang up" about four engines is that I assume you can transit speedily on four and then loiter economically on two. But what do I know? I'm a Pongo.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
GS, there was certainly a 4-engine/2-engine debate over the Atlantic/Shackleton which which favoured the Nimrod over the Atlantic, but then the Nimrod needed 4-engines for much of its mission but was then lugging extra weight for the rest of the time.
Four engines doubles the whole engine logistics costs and with small numbers no economy of scale.
Twin jets are now more reliable, powerful, and economical. For an MPA a sea bird strike is perhaps the only reason for extra engines. Four engines however are no guarantee of survival from a bird strike.
Four engines doubles the whole engine logistics costs and with small numbers no economy of scale.
Twin jets are now more reliable, powerful, and economical. For an MPA a sea bird strike is perhaps the only reason for extra engines. Four engines however are no guarantee of survival from a bird strike.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The US of A, and sometimes Bonnie Scotland
Posts: 549
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The MR2 would shut down engines, when specific weights were reached due to fuel burn; the lighter you got, the less became the requirement for all engines. The loiter capability therefore was improved. But the transit home, at height, was on all engines, as this again, was more fuel efficient.
The MRA4, whilst 4-engined was never envisaged to operate thus. Not because of electrical power requirements, as some suggest, but the drag penalty of a windmilling huge fan engine.
My point is that a 4-engined aeroplane is not necessarily "better" than a 2-engined one.
The MRA4, whilst 4-engined was never envisaged to operate thus. Not because of electrical power requirements, as some suggest, but the drag penalty of a windmilling huge fan engine.
My point is that a 4-engined aeroplane is not necessarily "better" than a 2-engined one.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Far North of Watford
Age: 82
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can understand that engines are now more reliable so two can be as safe as four used to be. However, from what you say at the beginning of your last post, the four engines on the MR2 brought fuel and therefore endurance efficiency benefits. Why couldn't the same efficiencies be achieved with the P1's four engines?
The answer is simple. Kawasaki supply the basic airframes to BWoS, who fit RR Speys, which will be supplied buy China Bootleg Inc. Then BWoS fit all the gubbins from MRA4.
Nice simple 'Off the shelf' project. Well, off a few shelves.
What could possibly go wrong ?
Nice simple 'Off the shelf' project. Well, off a few shelves.
What could possibly go wrong ?