UK Maritime Patrol Aircraft - An Urgent Requirement
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OCean Way
How would an MMA have helped the "Ocean Way"??
She issued a Mayday and sank in minutes - the crew were in the water but two seem to never have got out as they were sleeping below
The helicopter was there directly -the crew weren't wearing life jackets
Unless you dropped a life raft that they were capable of getting into or (a la Japanese AF) land on the water an MMA could only film them in the water
I doubt the time difference between a chopper and an MMA flying 100 miles off the coast would be really significant
She issued a Mayday and sank in minutes - the crew were in the water but two seem to never have got out as they were sleeping below
The helicopter was there directly -the crew weren't wearing life jackets
Unless you dropped a life raft that they were capable of getting into or (a la Japanese AF) land on the water an MMA could only film them in the water
I doubt the time difference between a chopper and an MMA flying 100 miles off the coast would be really significant
Sandy Parts,
I read it as saying 'We don't want a cheap MPA that only does that and doesn't have any room for development, but a proper MMA that can do other things as well' - the P-8 is classed as an MMA
I read it as saying 'We don't want a cheap MPA that only does that and doesn't have any room for development, but a proper MMA that can do other things as well' - the P-8 is classed as an MMA
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Ocean Way
HH - With survivors in the water, especially without lifejackets, speed of response is critical. Even assuming a SAR equipped MMA were not airborne on ops/trg within 250 miles of the datum, a scrambled aircraft would expect to be on scene before the SAR helicopter. A liferaft drop to the survivors could have given the skipper his best chance of survival.
hanifar,
You say that "a scrambled aircraft would expect to be on scene before the SAR helicopter".
That's not always the case. Callout time for a UK SAR helo is 15 minutes to airborne other than during night hours. Towards the end the Nimrod MR2 was holding a 2 hour standby for SAR missions, with the crew at home on pagers. Yes, ex MR2 guys will tell you they would expect to do it in less than 2 hours, but almost certainly from home it would take at least one hour. Transit time from Boulmer to on scene (I believe it was approx. 100 miles off the Northumberland coast in this tragic case) would probably put a SAR helo on scene as the MPA was getting airborne.
Yes, MPA are faster, and in general your point has some validity, but as I have just pointed out, you also have to take into account callout and transit times. If the incident was off Cornwall for example and your MPA is in Scotland and your helo is from Culdrose...
You say that "a scrambled aircraft would expect to be on scene before the SAR helicopter".
That's not always the case. Callout time for a UK SAR helo is 15 minutes to airborne other than during night hours. Towards the end the Nimrod MR2 was holding a 2 hour standby for SAR missions, with the crew at home on pagers. Yes, ex MR2 guys will tell you they would expect to do it in less than 2 hours, but almost certainly from home it would take at least one hour. Transit time from Boulmer to on scene (I believe it was approx. 100 miles off the Northumberland coast in this tragic case) would probably put a SAR helo on scene as the MPA was getting airborne.
Yes, MPA are faster, and in general your point has some validity, but as I have just pointed out, you also have to take into account callout and transit times. If the incident was off Cornwall for example and your MPA is in Scotland and your helo is from Culdrose...
If the incident was off Cornwall for example and your MPA is in Scotland and your helo is from Culdrose...
Betty,
Why ask a question you already know the answer to? To make your point I suppose.
My point was regarding the comparison between helo and MPA arrival on task times at the scene of a SAR incident, as brought up by hanfimar, which is not always as simple as some people many believe and has more determinants than just aircraft speed.
Having said to hanfimar in general your point has some validity I would have thought it must be fairly obvious that I wasn't saying that an MPA doesn't have a place in SAR operations. Best tool for the job and all that
So what exactly do you think the transit time for a helo to go 500nm offshore would be?
reynold,
Good for you. I never said the MPA wouldn't get there first, just that it isn't a given. In the 70's MPA SAR was on 1hr notice. As I stated, by the end it had increased to 2hrs. No more staying in the mess, but at home on pagers. And if your incident was 100nm off the coast of Cornwall and not 250nm. Mind you, you might not have been needed then.
You MPA guys need to stop being so defensive. I never said that an MPA wouldn't get there first, just that IT WOULDN'T ALWAYS GET THERE FIRST!! I didn't realise that was heresy, it happens to be a simple fact of life. Indeed, if someone determines that it won't get there first it may not be sent at all, depending on the situation.
Why ask a question you already know the answer to? To make your point I suppose.
My point was regarding the comparison between helo and MPA arrival on task times at the scene of a SAR incident, as brought up by hanfimar, which is not always as simple as some people many believe and has more determinants than just aircraft speed.
Having said to hanfimar in general your point has some validity I would have thought it must be fairly obvious that I wasn't saying that an MPA doesn't have a place in SAR operations. Best tool for the job and all that
So what exactly do you think the transit time for a helo to go 500nm offshore would be?
reynold,
Good for you. I never said the MPA wouldn't get there first, just that it isn't a given. In the 70's MPA SAR was on 1hr notice. As I stated, by the end it had increased to 2hrs. No more staying in the mess, but at home on pagers. And if your incident was 100nm off the coast of Cornwall and not 250nm. Mind you, you might not have been needed then.
You MPA guys need to stop being so defensive. I never said that an MPA wouldn't get there first, just that IT WOULDN'T ALWAYS GET THERE FIRST!! I didn't realise that was heresy, it happens to be a simple fact of life. Indeed, if someone determines that it won't get there first it may not be sent at all, depending on the situation.
Last edited by Biggus; 6th Nov 2014 at 20:13.
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No one's being defensive!! Just being realistic!
We're talking about a Long Range SAR asset. Simples.
And I'm sorry if I asked my question to make a point. Stupid me. I must start asking questions and making points, to not make a point. Whatever....
We're talking about a Long Range SAR asset. Simples.
And I'm sorry if I asked my question to make a point. Stupid me. I must start asking questions and making points, to not make a point. Whatever....
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How unusual, a thread that actually could affect me personally...on account of my hobby of offshore yacht racing. These days GPS EPIRBs are inexpensive so the "S" of SAR is less crucial and all MFVs and most offshore yachts carry liferafts. Clearly, the "in the water with no life jacket" scenario won't turn out well whatever happens. But even if an MPA wins the race, what I want from it is a ride home, rather than a wave and another reg for my notebook, so surely this segment of the debate is a bit of a red herring.
Last edited by ShotOne; 6th Nov 2014 at 22:51.
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ShotOne,
How very humble of you to bless us with "a thread that might actually affect me". I'm sure we're all very pleased.
Understand that SAR is only one part of this thread.
I suggest you be introspective in realising that the deletion of Nimrod has meant far more than the abdication of responsibility of Long Range Seach and Rescue.
How very humble of you to bless us with "a thread that might actually affect me". I'm sure we're all very pleased.
Understand that SAR is only one part of this thread.
I suggest you be introspective in realising that the deletion of Nimrod has meant far more than the abdication of responsibility of Long Range Seach and Rescue.
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ShotOne - everyone would agree that the important thing is to make sure that the recovery of the injured parties is completed as quickly as possible. What no-one can predict is what supplies will be left after any incident (the press reports for Tony Bullimore refer to a bar of chocolate and 5 days before recovery), so the idea of being able to deploy some sort of rescue apparatus which contains supplies of food, water, clothing and other bits and bobs is important, so that (hopefully) the rescue party (be they airborne or on the surface) can actually rescue a survivor.
Whilst in other areas of the world, this SAR task is a primary role for non-MPA/MMA aircraft, other aircraft types in their inventory continue to practise searching for targets and the deployment of any rescue stores.
As has been pointed out many times, SAR is but one small element of the many tasks that MPA/MMA aircraft undertake. I dearly hope that the UK gets back into the MMA world (having spent over 25 years within the kipper fleet) but fear that the financial outlay v any benefits that accountants can relate to, will prevent it.
I watch with interest whilst continuing to practise SAR procedures with our commonwealth cousins.
Whilst in other areas of the world, this SAR task is a primary role for non-MPA/MMA aircraft, other aircraft types in their inventory continue to practise searching for targets and the deployment of any rescue stores.
As has been pointed out many times, SAR is but one small element of the many tasks that MPA/MMA aircraft undertake. I dearly hope that the UK gets back into the MMA world (having spent over 25 years within the kipper fleet) but fear that the financial outlay v any benefits that accountants can relate to, will prevent it.
I watch with interest whilst continuing to practise SAR procedures with our commonwealth cousins.
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Poseidon can replace JSTARS as well - potentially. Which brings us back to MMA... Can we say MMLA? (Multimission Maritime/Land Aircraft)
Providing ground-mapping and moving-personnel-tracking capability to the P-8:
Exclusive: P-8 Poseidon Flies With Shadowy Radar System Attached
Providing ground-mapping and moving-personnel-tracking capability to the P-8:
Exclusive: P-8 Poseidon Flies With Shadowy Radar System Attached
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Thank you, Betty. SAR just one part of this? Really..I thought nimrods were flown by the RNLI. In fact it's just SAR happened to be under discussion when I joined the conversation. For what it's worth I feel it beggars belief that a maritime nation like ours feels it can do without a MPA
But even if an MPA wins the race, what I want from it is a ride home, rather than a wave and another reg for my notebook
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Oh get a grip! It wasn't a "requirement". Simply a "what if"..? You may not be aware, but a lot of the MPA/MMA business is in a dynamic environment. That was all I was trying to introduce.
Last edited by betty swallox; 8th Nov 2014 at 14:07.