UK Maritime Patrol Aircraft - An Urgent Requirement
SP - there is an unallocated pot of money amounting to several £ billion, one of the legacies of Philip Hammond's time at the helm. Although there's also a queue of unfunded wishlist items. It's possible, given hints that have been dropped, that MPA has worked its way towards the top of that list. But whether the rules allow it to be used to fund a lease deal, as opposed to outright purchase of a slack handful, I don't know.
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Just to show the current state of export capabilities of the Japanese Defence industry, knowing that they also have a viable candidate in the form of the P-1,
For First Time Since World War 2, Japan Will Sell Military Equipment. To India.
Even big items like advanced subs are available,
Report: Australia Moving Ahead With $20 Billion Japanese Sub Buy - USNI News
I'm certain that when politics wouldn't play so much of a role in defence acquisitions that the KAWASAKI would be a better choice than the P-8.
For First Time Since World War 2, Japan Will Sell Military Equipment. To India.
For First Time Since World War 2, Japan Will Sell Military Equipment. To India.
Report: Australia Moving Ahead With $20 Billion Japanese Sub Buy - USNI News
Report: Australia Moving Ahead With $20 Billion Japanese Sub Buy
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can't see a problem with P8 deliveries - the US military will be very happy to slightly delay a few aircraft (remember we're talking 4-8 here not a hundred) )late in their delivery schedule to:-
a) support US industry
b) make sure there is some ally out there with the same kit
c) help keep the line running as long as possible
a) support US industry
b) make sure there is some ally out there with the same kit
c) help keep the line running as long as possible
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UK Maritime Patrol Aircraft - An Urgent Requirement
JTEPS have kept Leeming up their sleeve for a while now. I took part in the first site survey to assess whether it could be used for JW MPA Ops in 2012 because LEU and LOS were not available. My understanding is that Leeming is being used for this JW for exactly that reason - if I recall, it was OK for short term ops, but would need a lot of work to make it a permanent base.
Low ObservableHaving talked to a couple of people who think they have something to offer, my sense is that if there is an AoA, it is a classic black box. You can put data in and there are not many questions being asked in return, and there's no clue as to the internal logic (for instance, how is MPA being tied to the Sentinel or AWACS long-term missions?). Since the basic requirements could very easily be arranged to eliminate one or more of the potential candidates, this is not encouraging.
Obviously we know there is the P-8 (expensive); P1 (would Japan export, and sort of fits into the "if it looks right, it will fly right" failing of MRA4); CASA 295 (slow); after that we are into the land of conjecture, R&D costs and therefore risk, aren't we? If money was no object (huge problem for the UK even before the Scots cease to be British "tomorrow") then surely the best solution would be the Boeing 737 based P-8 MMA to do Maritime ISTAR and Attack as well as Land ISTAR with Boeing 737 based AEW to replace Sentry? Single airframe type should = savings in support, logistics and potentially training? Is there another single airframe out there that offers this?
RP - Basically that mix, plus Saab 2000 (faster than C295, a mini-P-3), with the EriEye as a companion for both wide-area maritime surveillance and AEW.
Boeing is now making a run at Joint STARS replacement with the 737-700 and an aft-mounted radar canoe (P-8A/AAS is heavy) and still has the idea of replacing all C-135/707-like ISR with the 737. Who knows, in the spirit of their love affair with Saab they might stick the EriEye next-gen (gallium-nitride) radar on the 737... I really don't know how well the NGC radar on Wedgetail works after all the fixes.
Boeing is now making a run at Joint STARS replacement with the 737-700 and an aft-mounted radar canoe (P-8A/AAS is heavy) and still has the idea of replacing all C-135/707-like ISR with the 737. Who knows, in the spirit of their love affair with Saab they might stick the EriEye next-gen (gallium-nitride) radar on the 737... I really don't know how well the NGC radar on Wedgetail works after all the fixes.
), but I believe the other MPA are and so is the Ops Support!
LO: A brief look at the SAAB data sheet suggests no ASW mission for the 2000, no mention of deployable stuff (like sonobuoys), a maritime "surveillance" radar (is it good enough to detect fleeting targets like a periscope?), 5.5 hours endurance at 200 nms (so not long on station at 6 or 700 nms?) and no mention of weapons capability at all; so sort of half a P-3 then.
Looks like it would be a good option for Border Agency, Immigration, Customs, pollution and SAR work though, but not convinced by its military (ASW/ASuW) role; unless SAAB have a cunning plan.
I understand that Erieye radar is pretty good but have no idea how it compares to Wedgetail. As for minimising airframe types; isn't it a shame we cannot take the RJ systems and put them on board a far more modern airframe? Something already in service with the RAF? Perhaps something like an A330? High altitude, long range/endurance, stacks of space (although I guess the US would want a 767 based version to match their future tanker force).
Looks like it would be a good option for Border Agency, Immigration, Customs, pollution and SAR work though, but not convinced by its military (ASW/ASuW) role; unless SAAB have a cunning plan.
I understand that Erieye radar is pretty good but have no idea how it compares to Wedgetail. As for minimising airframe types; isn't it a shame we cannot take the RJ systems and put them on board a far more modern airframe? Something already in service with the RAF? Perhaps something like an A330? High altitude, long range/endurance, stacks of space (although I guess the US would want a 767 based version to match their future tanker force).
Saab 2000 Swordfish MPA does have an ASW/ASuW capability, inc sonobouys and a Selex 7500 Seaspray maritime surveillance radar. When I spoke to Saab a few weeks ago, they declined to give specifics on weaponry (though they said it is equipped to carry them) so can't really comment on the specifics of that.
The Saab 340 MSA is geared at border security and maritime surveillance, with no offensive capabilities.
The Saab 340 MSA is geared at border security and maritime surveillance, with no offensive capabilities.
Roland Pulfrew, Airbus originally proposed an A320 MPA for the German Navy:
But instead they acquired ex-Dutch Navy P-3Cs which now equip Marinefliegergeschwader 3 Graf Zeppelin.
Airbus later refined the design proposal in an A319 MPA which lost out to the P-8I for India.
I would have thought that a 'sharklet' A321 MPA would offer greater fuel capacity (if modified to include additional tanks) - and the advantage of similar type ratings for the A321 MPA and Voyager might reduce training costs significantly. Where to base them? Well, when Cornwall finally accepts that Newquay Airport is unsustainable, perhaps the RAF could return to St. Mawgan?
But instead they acquired ex-Dutch Navy P-3Cs which now equip Marinefliegergeschwader 3 Graf Zeppelin.
Airbus later refined the design proposal in an A319 MPA which lost out to the P-8I for India.
I would have thought that a 'sharklet' A321 MPA would offer greater fuel capacity (if modified to include additional tanks) - and the advantage of similar type ratings for the A321 MPA and Voyager might reduce training costs significantly. Where to base them? Well, when Cornwall finally accepts that Newquay Airport is unsustainable, perhaps the RAF could return to St. Mawgan?
Beags - Love me some Airbus as much as the next person, but unless you're prepared to ditch low-altitude ASW completely, the cost is going to be eyewatering. There are surprisingly few part-number-common structure parts between any civvy 737 and the P-8A.
Funny you mention used P-3s - Airbus is very proud of the P-3As it has just modded for Brazil. As A models, they were replaced by Bs and Cs and retired to Davis-Monthan quite early, and cycle-wise they are now spring chickens compared with the USN's operational P-3 fleet.
Funny you mention used P-3s - Airbus is very proud of the P-3As it has just modded for Brazil. As A models, they were replaced by Bs and Cs and retired to Davis-Monthan quite early, and cycle-wise they are now spring chickens compared with the USN's operational P-3 fleet.
Airbus originally proposed an A320 MPA for the German Navy:
They do not have the foresight to look at the global market for military aircraft and build what is needed.
Lots of nations require new tankers, lots of nations require new and capable MMA/MPA, lots of nations require new ELINT/SIGINT/AEW platforms - but where are these in Airbus' product line?
I can't think of any other defence company (including Boeing) that has the wide-ranging portfolio of Airbus Defence and Space (Airbus Military is so 2013).
Mel
You are missing my point. A400 may be a good pseudo-strat airlifter. It may, one day be a good Tac transport, or SF platform, or a tanker for RW assets. I do not deny that they have huge potential with the A400. Nor do I doubt that they have huge potential with the A330 tanker/transport. But not all nations can afford, nor need anything as capable as an A330, so where is the modern equivalent of the "KC310"? You've developed a military version of the A310 and A330, but where is the option to replace E3, RJ, Sentinel or MPA in the product line? Airbus proposed the A320 MPA. I believe that it was well regarded in one international competition, but it didn't exist. The competition did, and won. C295 AEW v E3? A bit of a step change in capability if we are really honest!!
As for the CASA, do you really, honestly, think that it comes any where near to being a replacement for (even) the P3? Even the example of the Airbus P3A update suggests that Airbus don't believe that the 295 is a viable replacement for a real deep water MPA capability!
Brazil is prepared to put its money where it's mouth is with the KC390; if they can do it, so can Airbus - if they really believe that their military division has a future (and that in itself may be the problem) and yes, I do know it's now Airbus Defence and Space as opposed to Airbus Mil, but AD&S trips off the tongue about as easily as DE&S!!
You are missing my point. A400 may be a good pseudo-strat airlifter. It may, one day be a good Tac transport, or SF platform, or a tanker for RW assets. I do not deny that they have huge potential with the A400. Nor do I doubt that they have huge potential with the A330 tanker/transport. But not all nations can afford, nor need anything as capable as an A330, so where is the modern equivalent of the "KC310"? You've developed a military version of the A310 and A330, but where is the option to replace E3, RJ, Sentinel or MPA in the product line? Airbus proposed the A320 MPA. I believe that it was well regarded in one international competition, but it didn't exist. The competition did, and won. C295 AEW v E3? A bit of a step change in capability if we are really honest!!
As for the CASA, do you really, honestly, think that it comes any where near to being a replacement for (even) the P3? Even the example of the Airbus P3A update suggests that Airbus don't believe that the 295 is a viable replacement for a real deep water MPA capability!
Brazil is prepared to put its money where it's mouth is with the KC390; if they can do it, so can Airbus - if they really believe that their military division has a future (and that in itself may be the problem) and yes, I do know it's now Airbus Defence and Space as opposed to Airbus Mil, but AD&S trips off the tongue about as easily as DE&S!!
