Ascent UK MFTS
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Well that's tri-service flying training sorted. I wonder what's in store for single-service flying training and everything else that fell into the RAF flying training budget (AEF, UAS, Red Arrows, BBMF etc)?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Cloud Cuckoo Land
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Linton closing should not come as a surprise - the only way that Ascent could justify their low bid was by closing one of the training airfields. The only thing that's stopped this happening sooner is the Tucano's lack of clearance for an immersion suit. No goon bag = no seaside airfield. What should come as a surprise is that anyone thinks you can co-locate T6 & Hawks for flying training. Downwind speeds of 100 kts and 160+ kts will make for a sporty visual pattern. Airspace around Valley is already congested and this will only get worse as the RAF and RN try to recover aircrew manning post-SDSR 10. Impending European airspace directives are likely to exacerbate the problem. I just hope I'm not there to experience the chaos.
Bob Viking wrote:
Why should we expect 'military guys' to try and make this ridiculous crock of $hit 'work'? That's the job of the PFI provider. A 'can do' attitude is all very well in the military world, but not so for sorting out some contractor's bolleaux so that their bottom line won't suffer.
Snake Oil Flying School know darn well that it's going to be difficult for them to attract QFIs of the right calibre - particularly if the only option for them is Valley.
I suspect for many, who might have thought about QFI-ing, that the airline world might now be of rather greater appeal.
But if they closed Valley, moved the Hawk T2s and remaining T1s to Leeming with T6NL....T-6Cs replacing the Tucanos at Linton.....
Fair enough but please don't do a disservice to the military guys who will fight tooth and nail to make the whole think work.
BV
BV
Snake Oil Flying School know darn well that it's going to be difficult for them to attract QFIs of the right calibre - particularly if the only option for them is Valley.
I suspect for many, who might have thought about QFI-ing, that the airline world might now be of rather greater appeal.
But if they closed Valley, moved the Hawk T2s and remaining T1s to Leeming with T6NL....T-6Cs replacing the Tucanos at Linton.....
BV - I will happily admit it's over 2 years since I was last at Valley, and I will equally bow to your up to date knowledge of what is happening in that neck of the woods, and as such apologise for suggesting otherwise. I know the military (and ex military) guys and girls will ALWAYS do their best to make the system as put in place work.
But my main point is it has still taken an awful long time to get to the point of (presumably) ordering new aircraft and then getting the whole syllabus up and running.
But my main point is it has still taken an awful long time to get to the point of (presumably) ordering new aircraft and then getting the whole syllabus up and running.
Regardless of how good or bad the future UK Mil flying training will be - it's still going to be located at Valley. I accept some people like Holyhead and it surroundings but I've only ever met one in my significant number of RAF years service.
Good luck anyway....
Good luck anyway....
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Odd choice of types
Why the disparity of manufacturers (apart from EFT which continues to be given no choice but modified white plastic private pilot light aircraft with poor egress options now the EJ seats cannot be fitted).
If you're going to purchase BFT and multi engine trainers surely it is better to source them from the same firm. E.g Beechcraft T6 plus King Air or Embraer Super Tucano plus Phenom?
Back to EFT, the Flight "pocket rocket" article was written by someone employed by Grob who presents their TP sales video so naturally it was positive!
The tried and tested SF260TP has the same Alison 250, 15000h design life, can be painted any colour, has a much clearer canopy and lower coming design, and can carry hard points for fuel/ electronic training pods.
What did the Indian Air Force buy instead of the 120TP?
PC7m
If you're going to purchase BFT and multi engine trainers surely it is better to source them from the same firm. E.g Beechcraft T6 plus King Air or Embraer Super Tucano plus Phenom?
Back to EFT, the Flight "pocket rocket" article was written by someone employed by Grob who presents their TP sales video so naturally it was positive!
The tried and tested SF260TP has the same Alison 250, 15000h design life, can be painted any colour, has a much clearer canopy and lower coming design, and can carry hard points for fuel/ electronic training pods.
What did the Indian Air Force buy instead of the 120TP?
PC7m
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Fun and games
Interesting comments about line between BFT and EFT. Does MFTS need both platforms?
Royal Thai Air Force used Alison 250 engined German RFB Fantrainer for over 20 years as initial platform all the way to F5E fighter. Both Luftwaffe and USAF pilots rated it above beech turbine Mentor and PC7.
RAF also had history of starting with more capable types such as the JP.
Agree the SF260 always looked right - no unnecessary aero mods.
Is side by side essential? Not for Tigermoth, Harvard, Spitfire generation.
Interestingly, civi street are looking at more exposure to tandem cockpits in gliders and for upset recovery training (re: flight crew training conference held by Royal Aero Soc.).
Royal Thai Air Force used Alison 250 engined German RFB Fantrainer for over 20 years as initial platform all the way to F5E fighter. Both Luftwaffe and USAF pilots rated it above beech turbine Mentor and PC7.
RAF also had history of starting with more capable types such as the JP.
Agree the SF260 always looked right - no unnecessary aero mods.
Is side by side essential? Not for Tigermoth, Harvard, Spitfire generation.
Interestingly, civi street are looking at more exposure to tandem cockpits in gliders and for upset recovery training (re: flight crew training conference held by Royal Aero Soc.).
I think Peter Collins wrote the article for Flight before he had any formal role with Grob - he was/is a staff writer for flight, amongst other things. Maybe he got a job with Grob on the strength of his enthusiasm for the 120!
Looking at it, it seems a sensible progression - the cockpit avionics are common with the T6, and it can have its performance/features restricted to suit earlier students.
I am intrigued to know the future of the Tutor fleet. They are very cheap to operate for the perceived benefit. And, after all, the RAF ran the Chipmunk fleet for many years mainly for the AEF task - will they be retained just for this/UAS?
Looking at it, it seems a sensible progression - the cockpit avionics are common with the T6, and it can have its performance/features restricted to suit earlier students.
I am intrigued to know the future of the Tutor fleet. They are very cheap to operate for the perceived benefit. And, after all, the RAF ran the Chipmunk fleet for many years mainly for the AEF task - will they be retained just for this/UAS?
I've long believed that UAS/AEF/VGS should be attached to Service flying and gliding clubs. These could employ full-time/part-time instructors at ~£25ph to teach to solo or fly the air experience profile - the savings could be immense, with full cost of a Grob flying hour being between £200-£400ph (depending on 109 or 115) and a comparable aircraft hired for ~1/3rd of the cost. If the flying is done on a Govt airfield then they still get some military ethos and the airworthiness and the financial risk is shifted away from the Service.
Let's face it, not that many can join the Regulars as a pilot, so why invest so heavily in the expected 50,000 in the Air Cadet Expansion Program and the University Air Sqns? I believe that the Oxford University operate their gliding club at RAF Weston on the Green and the University College of London operate their gliding club at RAF Halton - why can't the UAS attach in a similar way?
The B Word
PS. The recruits at RAF Halton have been given AEFs with the microlight club in the past - see here:http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafhalton/news...0E9E613C515004. It kind of shows what could be done with the Senior Leadership Team's backing.
Let's face it, not that many can join the Regulars as a pilot, so why invest so heavily in the expected 50,000 in the Air Cadet Expansion Program and the University Air Sqns? I believe that the Oxford University operate their gliding club at RAF Weston on the Green and the University College of London operate their gliding club at RAF Halton - why can't the UAS attach in a similar way?
The B Word
PS. The recruits at RAF Halton have been given AEFs with the microlight club in the past - see here:http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafhalton/news...0E9E613C515004. It kind of shows what could be done with the Senior Leadership Team's backing.
The B Word,
Correction - the Oxford University Gliding Club operates alongside the Windrushers Gliding Club at the Bicester Gliding Centre - no RAF connection at all!
Correction - the Oxford University Gliding Club operates alongside the Windrushers Gliding Club at the Bicester Gliding Centre - no RAF connection at all!
My apologies - it's the Oxford Gliding Club at RAF Weston on the Green! 
I still think that attaching to Gliding Clubs on RAF Stations is a good idea though if UAS/AEF/VGS is unaffordable (which I believe it is!).
The B Word
I still think that attaching to Gliding Clubs on RAF Stations is a good idea though if UAS/AEF/VGS is unaffordable (which I believe it is!).
The B Word
"I still think that attaching to Gliding Clubs on RAF Stations is a good idea"
Not to mention the odd RN or Army site (they both have their own well supported gliding associations)
Just being pedantic - no offense intended
Not to mention the odd RN or Army site (they both have their own well supported gliding associations)
Just being pedantic - no offense intended
Rocket2
Yup, RN and Army would be great. Indeed, some VGS already operate from the sister Services' sites (Predannack, Abingdon, Upavon, Wethersfield and Chivenor).
The B Word
Yup, RN and Army would be great. Indeed, some VGS already operate from the sister Services' sites (Predannack, Abingdon, Upavon, Wethersfield and Chivenor).
The B Word
