Ascent UK MFTS

[BEagle]

Except that, in this situation, the frustration / delay hasn't been due to any 'fault' of the RAF......

Just the plank who thought that MFTS was A Great Idea.

How many other air forces farm out their core military training to civilian companies?

[Canadian Break]

One of the "planks" involved was a RN 2.5!!! Pre-emptive strike for the Harriers controversy?

[PPRuNeUser0172]

How many other air forces farm out their core military training to civilian companies?

Well NFTC for one is a very similar setup and one which the RAF has been a successful member of.

MFTS in principle is not a bad thing as a concept...the execution is perhaps demonstrably a little off at the moment but there are probably some hefty mitigating factors?!

The setup in terms of infrastructure (ac/real-estate/IT support/sims) should mean that this system is world beating. Just not quite there yet sadly.

[Bob Viking]

Dirty Sanchez

I'm biting my tongue as hard as I can and will not be drawn into a public debate on the rights and wrongs of MFTS. As someone who is intimately familiar with both MFTS (IV Sqn) and NFTC I can tell you that you are much further from the mark than you think on several counts.
BV

[BEagle]

So, BV, that would indicate that you disagree with the statement:

MFTS in principle is not a bad thing as a concept...

Even though you are 'intimately familiar' with IV Sqn?

Hopefully no self-seeking airship will direct manning to sort out the chaos at Valley - and the whole failed MFTS experiment will be consigned to the rubbish bin of history.

The Hawk T2 and the syllabus might be one thing, but the bolleaux of MFTS quite something else....

[PPRuNeUser0172]

BV,

I regret any incorrect assumptions about the similarity of MFTS and NFTC, again I don't wish to be critical of either system but merely offered my tuppence of thoughts. With your insight what makes them so different?

I am afraid I cannot support the notion that MFTS should be banished to the bin. It is, whether rightly or wrongly the system that is now in place and it is incumbent on all involved to see it through is it not?

I am surprised there is an apparent shortage of QFIs; now is this because the system (and I am looking specifically at IV Sqn) can't train them, or that the FJ desk are not posting people to Valley?

[Roland Pulfrew]

it is incumbent on all involved to see it through is it not?

Well that, I suspect, is where there is going to be a divergence of opinion. Unfortunately it is time that civilian contractors, who fail to meet their part of the contract, we're dealt with severely; even if that means bankrupting them. Defence cannot remain a cash cow for under performing contractors. Only then might the penny drop with our political masters that you cannot do Defence on the cheap.

IMHO, MFTS is a set too far, is incompatible with any number of government policies and risks destroying what was once, arguably, the best military training system there was. If it fails now we still have the knowledge and skills "in house" to recover the situation. If we leave it another 5 years............

[Bob Viking]

DS

I think I can answer that without putting my foot in it!

At NFTC, the contractor provides the jets, sim and infrastructure and nothing more.
Under MFTS the contractor is supposed to provide everything except the pink bodies to fill the QFI shaped flying suits.

BEagle, you're just being mischievious.
BV

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Cheers BV,

Forgive me for being dim, but I still don't see what huge differences exist between the 2. Not that it matters... NFTC is working and according to many here MFTS isn't.

At NFTC, the contractor provides the jets, sim and infrastructure and nothing more

Apart from jets, sim and infrastructure, what are MFTS expected to provide that NFTC aren't? Doesn't "infrastructure" cover syllabus, IT etc etc. Both systems rely on a supply of instructors by their respective Air Force(s). Are Ascent been given the QFIs they were guaranteed to make the programme viable?

Roland,

Unfortunately it is time that civilian contractors, who fail to meet their part of the contract, we're dealt with severely

Is this a matter of perspective? Do civilian contractors who work for Ascent really (and deliberately) not provide what it is they are supposed to? Is it down to a badly written contract, lacking the finer details which only come to light once the system is "running"? These issues then lead to a bunfight over who does them and at whose expense...

Clearly what is not in question is the frustration but is one side firmly to blame?

[Bob Viking]

DS.
I didn't choose my words very well perhaps. By infrastructure I just meant stuff. At NFTC the military developed, wrote and standardize the syllabus. MFTS are supposed to do that themselves and the military guys just teach it.
BV

[Roland Pulfrew]

Is it down to a badly written contract, lacking the finer details which only come to light once the system is "running"?

DS, you are probably correct with that. It is all the little extras that we as military personnel just do, because of years of experience, because it s what is expected of us and because when tasked with doing it by the Boss we get on and do it. The little things that would be impossible to capture in a contract but wich are the glue that holds the whole system together. Things like if the PowerPoint presentation provided by the provider (be that RAF or contractor) is wrong, you just get on and change it. But with contractor provided PowerPoint that is a contract change, requires negotiation and time, effort and (significant) amounts of money.

at whose expense

And that is where the logic of contractorization fails. The company need to make a profit (unlike the military). Your short term contracted service may be cheaper on paper, initially, but it will not remain so. Their costs will increase, there will be things we want to do that were never captured in the contract, we will need to make changes against the 10 or 15 year old plan, they will not be able to deliver the quality we require over time = more expensive, less effective, more frustrating than doing it all in house.

[minigundiplomat]

A couple of points here.......

BEags

A nice thought, but, the majority of 'airships' at the top these days are wokka types with only a recent operational background in the North West Frontier!

The fall from grace of the Fast Jet jockey since we went back to the sandpit after '91 has been damaging top-end capability ever since we let a kipper mate in to run 11Gp.

Sorry mate - but the MFTS programme was going a long, long way before a wokka mate woke up and found himself wearing the daddy pants. Ergo - your statement [in this context] is hoop.

Secondly, the RW element was still in full swing as I left; Ascent were advertising for some very, very highly qualified and uniquely experienced individuals. Unfortunately, HR seemed to have mixed the offered salary with jobseekers allowance. I guessed those interested were expected to fund their employment from their service pension.

Pay peanuts - get monkeys.... et voila!

[Background Noise]

Daily Post says it's great: RAF Valley: Hawk T2 aircraft mean fast jet training for pilots is faster than ever - Daily Post

[Roland Pulfrew]

A nice thought, but, the majority of 'airships' at the top these days are wokka types with only a recent operational background in the North West Frontier!

The fall from grace of the Fast Jet jockey since we went back to the sandpit after '91 has been damaging top-end capability ever since we let a kipper mate in to run 11Gp.

minigun

I had a little chuckle to myself with that as well. In my 30 odd years in Her Majesty's Flying Club there have only been 2 non-FJ Chiefs, Sir Peter H and the current CAS. And of course the 'kipper mate' referred to, ran the amalgamated 11/18 Gp rather than just 11 Gp - sadly probably a reflection of the decline in power of HMFC!!

[teeteringhead]

And of course the Ascent Training Director is a notable rotary mate too ........

[jamesmaybrick]

Hi guys,
this is my first post...I am an Italian Air Force Pilot Instructor, my family is from Uk and lives in Edinburgh. I have been in Ascent offices for an interview for the position as Subject Matter Expert. They are still in touch with me but before I leave the AF and start commuting from Bristol rather than Italy I was wondering if anyone can give me some info about the company
Thanks a lot for your help.

[BEagle]

Well, from what I hear, it's not going too well right now, is it BV?

[Double Hush]

Generally, or in light of Friday's events?

[Bob Viking]

Enough of the cryptic clues. What have you heard?!
BV

[Double Hush]

Another QRF grounding