UAE pulls out of Eurofighter deal...?
Erm, no, not at all - most of the summer in 45C+ straining a busy Op base. Where did Norway come from? I'd take Norway any day, all year round, if I'm honest 
Hot v Cold
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Thinking about this even further that if couple of other countries start to follow this path of stopping orders for kit (not just aircraft) then where does this leave BAE / Boeing etc etc who rely on it.
Scary idea for them.
Scary idea for them.
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Are we to believe that this is the first sale to an Arab State in history where hospitality and other friendship considerations have not crossed a table? As has already been mentioned, is it possible that BASE have made no effort to oil the the wheels of commerce for fear of accusations of corruption?
Now and again, we get what we wish for.
Now and again, we get what we wish for.
An MoD Press Release on 17th December included the following.
"Fiction: The MOD is exporting UAS to many different countries
Fact: The Government does not export UAS. The UK takes its arms export responsibilities very seriously operating one of the most robust export licensing regimes in the world. Quite rightly, these regulations apply to any UK based manufacturers wishing to export UAS in exactly the same way as for any other defence related exports."
As I read it, I thought: "Ooh. The Emiratis aren't going to like that."
Because the Typhoon deal there was always about much more than just selling them a fighter.......
"Fiction: The MOD is exporting UAS to many different countries
Fact: The Government does not export UAS. The UK takes its arms export responsibilities very seriously operating one of the most robust export licensing regimes in the world. Quite rightly, these regulations apply to any UK based manufacturers wishing to export UAS in exactly the same way as for any other defence related exports."
As I read it, I thought: "Ooh. The Emiratis aren't going to like that."
Because the Typhoon deal there was always about much more than just selling them a fighter.......
The Government does not export UAS. The UK takes its arms export responsibilities very seriously operating one of the most robust export licensing regimes in the world. Quite rightly, these regulations apply to any UK based manufacturers wishing to export UAS in exactly the same way as for any other defence related exports."
As I read it, I thought: "Ooh. The Emiratis aren't going to like that."
Because the Typhoon deal there was always about much more than just selling them a fighter.......
As I read it, I thought: "Ooh. The Emiratis aren't going to like that."
Because the Typhoon deal there was always about much more than just selling them a fighter.......
Now where do I buy a pistol to shoot myself in the foot - again?
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"Ethical arms policy"?? Tell that one to the French, Belgians, Americans et alii.
Perhaps the UK government should appoint the Co-Op as it's military equipment Sales agent. My local branch won't even stock the Shooting Times Magazine; that apparently is what being ethical is all about.
Perhaps the UK government should appoint the Co-Op as it's military equipment Sales agent. My local branch won't even stock the Shooting Times Magazine; that apparently is what being ethical is all about.
"As BAE have said, it was an exciting prospect but not part of their business plan," they added.
Well I don't know who at BAE Systems made this statement but its contrary to information that has been provided to me directly from Samlesbury and Warton. It was No.1 on their latest list of export targets and it was suggested to me in the last couple of weeks that the deal was close to being done. So either BAE S were over confident with their chances or something went wrong at the final hurdle.
The way things are going, the only thing they have to cling onto is the hope that the current customers buy into the Eurofighter 2020 upgrade program. With the recent redundancies announced at EADS/Cassidian/Airbus, all is not well in the Eurofighter garden
Well I don't know who at BAE Systems made this statement but its contrary to information that has been provided to me directly from Samlesbury and Warton. It was No.1 on their latest list of export targets and it was suggested to me in the last couple of weeks that the deal was close to being done. So either BAE S were over confident with their chances or something went wrong at the final hurdle.
The way things are going, the only thing they have to cling onto is the hope that the current customers buy into the Eurofighter 2020 upgrade program. With the recent redundancies announced at EADS/Cassidian/Airbus, all is not well in the Eurofighter garden
My understanding is that, from a BAE Systems PoV, the deal was more than "close to being done" - it was done, at least insofar as the aircraft spec and pricing had been agreed.
But what hadn't been done was the IP transfer, the offsets, the local industrial participation, and nor had the UAS side of the deal been done (and how could it, really, with the credibility of UK UAS future work somewhat compromised by the lack of clear future funding, by the absence of real requirement documents, and by the clearly slow progress on Taranis?).
Add to this the patchy defence diplomacy effort (lots of ATLCs, but none of the kind of deep relationships that the French have established in the region, no permanent deployments, no reason to assume that the UK would cosset and cuddle the UAE on ops as the AdlA did for the Qataris in the Libyan op).
And add to that the Arab world's disappointment at the UK's weak and watery position on Syria, at some of the news reporting of Islamic related matters, and MBZ's reported pique at Cameron's fleeting, flitting appearance at the Dubai air show, and you would perhaps not be surprised at today's result.
Indeed you might be surprised that the UAE's disengagement was amicable, gentle, and even tenuous, apparently leaving the door open for further negotiation - unlike the humiliating slap down delivered to Dassault when the Rafale was rejected in November 2011.
But it clearly came as a surprise to HMG and BAE, a bolt from the blue, because everyone had expected the decision to slide into January or February, giving the IP offering time to 'mature' and for clarity to emerge on UASs.
But what hadn't been done was the IP transfer, the offsets, the local industrial participation, and nor had the UAS side of the deal been done (and how could it, really, with the credibility of UK UAS future work somewhat compromised by the lack of clear future funding, by the absence of real requirement documents, and by the clearly slow progress on Taranis?).
Add to this the patchy defence diplomacy effort (lots of ATLCs, but none of the kind of deep relationships that the French have established in the region, no permanent deployments, no reason to assume that the UK would cosset and cuddle the UAE on ops as the AdlA did for the Qataris in the Libyan op).
And add to that the Arab world's disappointment at the UK's weak and watery position on Syria, at some of the news reporting of Islamic related matters, and MBZ's reported pique at Cameron's fleeting, flitting appearance at the Dubai air show, and you would perhaps not be surprised at today's result.
Indeed you might be surprised that the UAE's disengagement was amicable, gentle, and even tenuous, apparently leaving the door open for further negotiation - unlike the humiliating slap down delivered to Dassault when the Rafale was rejected in November 2011.
But it clearly came as a surprise to HMG and BAE, a bolt from the blue, because everyone had expected the decision to slide into January or February, giving the IP offering time to 'mature' and for clarity to emerge on UASs.
Speedywheels
That ties in nicely with what some BAe people told me recently. They had a lot riding on that deal, and with F35 deep maintenance locations undecided they were, to put it bluntly, sh1tting it!
That ties in nicely with what some BAe people told me recently. They had a lot riding on that deal, and with F35 deep maintenance locations undecided they were, to put it bluntly, sh1tting it!
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Jacko
From what I've just been told up here, it was very simply a case of the customer asking for a price reduction at the eleventh hour and fifty-nine minutes; which BAES couldn't or wouldn't agree to. A deferment of the UAE decision was sought into the New Year, which has been declined. A regrettable state of affairs IMHO, leaving the workforce bewildered - especially given the repeated gung-ho messages from management, as recently as three or four days ago. UK Government's help apparently fell short of any financial interest.
From what I've just been told up here, it was very simply a case of the customer asking for a price reduction at the eleventh hour and fifty-nine minutes; which BAES couldn't or wouldn't agree to. A deferment of the UAE decision was sought into the New Year, which has been declined. A regrettable state of affairs IMHO, leaving the workforce bewildered - especially given the repeated gung-ho messages from management, as recently as three or four days ago. UK Government's help apparently fell short of any financial interest.
"MBZ's reported pique at Cameron's fleeting, flitting appearance at the Dubai air show, and you would perhaps not be surprised at today's result."
Having been at the show at the time (Jacko if you were at Dubai Air show then I think we may have met without realising it if you are who I think you are!) then I'd say that the Emiratis pique over that is probably unrealistic.
they got the PM, SofS, Min(DEST), CDS, CAS and a host of other seniors and the entire red arrows. If that isn't a commitment by HMG in their eyes, then a reasonable question would be 'what is', particularly when bearing in mind how weak other nations commitments were at the time.
The problem I think the UAE will have is that the more it pulls out of deals (2nd time in 3 years), the more difficult it will be for them to convince manufacturers and countries to consider their engagement there. If they want an all embracing package of defence provision, wider co-operation and so on, then their options are quickly going to reduce. The further east you look the less the package is all embracing and more about making a quick buck. Given the cost of a bid these days, I wonder if UAE is quickly making a name for itself as somewhere where it is more hassle than its worth to try and do business.
Having been at the show at the time (Jacko if you were at Dubai Air show then I think we may have met without realising it if you are who I think you are!) then I'd say that the Emiratis pique over that is probably unrealistic.
they got the PM, SofS, Min(DEST), CDS, CAS and a host of other seniors and the entire red arrows. If that isn't a commitment by HMG in their eyes, then a reasonable question would be 'what is', particularly when bearing in mind how weak other nations commitments were at the time.
The problem I think the UAE will have is that the more it pulls out of deals (2nd time in 3 years), the more difficult it will be for them to convince manufacturers and countries to consider their engagement there. If they want an all embracing package of defence provision, wider co-operation and so on, then their options are quickly going to reduce. The further east you look the less the package is all embracing and more about making a quick buck. Given the cost of a bid these days, I wonder if UAE is quickly making a name for itself as somewhere where it is more hassle than its worth to try and do business.
Cuefaye - are you suggesting that UAE might come back to Eurofighter after failing to call BAE System's bluff?
Jacko - from what I heard BAE S had come up with a cunning plan that also involved trying to 'steal' the Indian order back from Dassault but I presume the UAE decision has scuppered both opportunities, for now at least
Jacko - from what I heard BAE S had come up with a cunning plan that also involved trying to 'steal' the Indian order back from Dassault but I presume the UAE decision has scuppered both opportunities, for now at least
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Pity. Typhoon's future enhancement could depend on a larger customer base... and its customer base might be enlarged by enhancements.
Does anyone have any idea how Typhoon is priced relative to its competitors? I don't think I have ever seen an unambiguous unit price for Typhoon, certainly not in the same way as the Super Hornet is often quoted in the $55 - $60m bracket (I am aware that unit price is often obscured by the support packages included in the deal). I'm guessing it must be expensive relative to other platforms that are already more developed in the strike role?
LF
Does anyone have any idea how Typhoon is priced relative to its competitors? I don't think I have ever seen an unambiguous unit price for Typhoon, certainly not in the same way as the Super Hornet is often quoted in the $55 - $60m bracket (I am aware that unit price is often obscured by the support packages included in the deal). I'm guessing it must be expensive relative to other platforms that are already more developed in the strike role?
LF
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That doesn't surprise me. There may be a lot of money in this country but there is also a marked reluctance to spend it, even when the deal being offered is a good one. Very often quality suffers as a result - and whilst I could tell a few stories, I think I will have to keep my lips sealed this time.
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Low flyer, I haven't seen a price tag, as such, either but the published value of the deal was said to total £6billion for sixty aircraft which presumably would have incorporated spares and training.
I suspect the merits of the aircraft were not the overriding factors in their decision. They want, in effect, to purchase future political/military support. The fact we didn't win isn't a disaster; had we committed ourselves potentially to involvement in some future ME conflict those 5000 BAe jobs could have come at a high price!
I suspect the merits of the aircraft were not the overriding factors in their decision. They want, in effect, to purchase future political/military support. The fact we didn't win isn't a disaster; had we committed ourselves potentially to involvement in some future ME conflict those 5000 BAe jobs could have come at a high price!
Last edited by ShotOne; 20th Dec 2013 at 21:40.