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US Navy debuts the P-8A Poseidon at the Dubai Air Show

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US Navy debuts the P-8A Poseidon at the Dubai Air Show

Old 21st Nov 2013, 21:02
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"nimrod" colour
sandy
You're risking the wrath of the maritime community calling the colour 'sandy' lol . They were hemp old chap (well apart from when they were painted grey).
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Old 21st Nov 2013, 23:19
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And the undersides of the Nimrod have always been "light aircraft grey" not "beige"!! As for the RAF RJ it's been painted exactly the same as the USAF RJs (apart from national markings). End of debate!!

Now back to he P8, my money is on neither the RAF nor the FAA ever operating them!!
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 04:53
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Originally Posted by Ken Scott View Post
I'm sure we could buy the P8A - but it will need new engines (Rolls Royce), new avionics (Ferranti?)
You mean like the E3 and rivet Joint? Oh wait, they were almost identical to the USAF spec ones so you must mean the Tristars that were re-engined? No, those are still on the original engines so you must mean Europrop equiped C130Js? No - those are still powered by the same engines as the US model.

The kind of modifying madness to which you refer is a POLITICAL issue, not a BAE Systems one. They are a commercial entity and will build what you ask for - hence the Tornado F2 and Spey-equipped F4 and Nimrod AEW3. Ask for the wrong kit and you'll get the wrong kit.

I was at BAe Prestwick at the time that the MR4 project began. We were told that the company advised that new-build aeroplanes would be the way to go and advised against rebuilding the shagged-out old airframes. Now, we may have been told an untruth but it is EXACTLY the kind of stupid stunt that MoD pulls all the time.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 06:10
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You mean like the E3 and rivet Joint? Oh wait, they were almost identical to the USAF spec ones
Not quite right, we re-engined the E-3Ds and changed a couple of other things, most notably ESM (by most notably, I mean they look different from an outside glance).
we may have been told an untruth
By a shear coincidence, someone involved in this told me the story yesterday. You are quite correct, it was the MOD who insisted on using the old fuselages. BAe even offered to build new and make it look like a Nimrod as this would of been easier (and possibly cheaper).
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 10:28
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Originally Posted by Sideshow Bob
Not quite right, we re-engined the E-3Ds
Not really, the CFM-56s were already a reliable retro-fit on other 707 based types, its not like we chose an entirely new engine type...

-RP
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 17:24
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US Navy debuts the P-8A Poseidon at the Dubai Air Show

Jesus Roland, chill out. If you don't like the discussion, don't read it. It was merely an observation from a picture I saw
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 17:34
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...or just obtain P-8 COTS. Just sayin...
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 18:50
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And of course there's the aircraft that India have had delivered this year. They clearly escaped from US airspace.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 19:34
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Originally Posted by Rhino power View Post
Not really, the CFM-56s were already a reliable retro-fit on other 707 based types, its not like we chose an entirely new engine type...

-RP
Not only that, they were fitted by the airframe manufacturer during its build
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 19:46
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they were almost identical to the USAF spec ones
Not only that, they were fitted by the airframe manufacturer during its build
However, not to USAF E-3's though. Fitted to the US Navy's TACAMO but not fitted to the USAF E-3.
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Old 22nd Nov 2013, 23:35
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Moggiee & SsB,

It's truly amazing how much posted on here about MRA4 is complete rubbish. The BAe proposal to MoD for RMPA was only ever based on a refurb of the MR2 fuselages. The only plan for new build fuselages was for the USN MMA, when an agreement was reached that McDonnell Douglas would build new fuses.

EG
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Old 23rd Nov 2013, 08:21
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I really would have thought we could afford $1.5 Bn for around 8 P-8's for the RAF

as long as we keep the up-grade merchants at BAe away from them .. perhaps subcontract them to Easy-Jet or RyanAir
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Old 23rd Nov 2013, 08:58
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry
.. perhaps subcontract them to Easy-Jet or RyanAir
easyjet don't fly 737s any more, might be a lack of type-rated pilots there these days...

-RP
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Old 23rd Nov 2013, 09:20
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Back to the original post, I thought DM comes over very well as both a meeja lovie and an ambassador for the RAF. Quite a good video clip too. Hope some of our hierarchy get to see it.

Apart from aircraft numbers, we could also debate future sqn manning between crabair and WAFUs. I could see 5 Sqn remaining but with a 50% mix between light and dark blue. Utilising the current 5 Sqn building but with P8's parked outside. Anyone else care to chip in?
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Old 23rd Nov 2013, 09:42
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PA,

Here's my chip.


The UK economy is improving, however:

BBC News - UK public finances improve in October as economy grows

The UK government is on course, despite budget cutbacks, to borrow 120Bn more than it earns next year. As a country we owe 1.207TRILLION, a figure that just keeps rising!! That represents 75% of GDP, where a figure nearer 40% of GDP is generally considered sustainable in the long term (as the economy improves, i.e. GDP increases, then the % of GDP owed figure will decrease, even though the TOTAL AMOUNT owed remains unchanged - but this effect won't produce significant decreases in the figure of 75%).

Overall, as a country, the UK is still broke. The USA may go on borrowing like there is no tomorrow, funding 11(?) odd carrier groups, but the current UK government is trying to reduce the debt burden.

All of which can be summed up as - THERE IS NO MORE MONEY. CAS is trying to keep Sentinel (already in place, crews trained, support system available), which has apparently proved its worth in recent conflicts, but which is not funded beyond 2015. Where is the money going to come from to buy a new aircraft, recruit/train crews, set up support contracts, infrastructure, expendables (e.g. sonobuoys) etc (all of which costs a lot more than just the price of the airframe!! ) without something else major going to fund it.

Which will have priority, keeping something we already have, which works, or reinvesting in something we have lost. And there probably isn't the money to do either!!
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Old 23rd Nov 2013, 10:30
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Biggus,

Don't hit me with those negative waves man!!

But essentially you're right and there will be no extra money. Therefore, it will all come down to priorities. The dark blue leadership are now very strongly supporting the need for a UK MPA within the political circles. Although the light blue wouldn't choose to give anything away, currently in use, the decision may be made for them. In other words, our politicians will direct MOD on what is essential and what isn't. Right now, the most sensible and influential bunch are the HCDC and I think they can see our last CAS' defend Tonka at all costs input to SDSR 10 for exactly what it was.

In terms of priorities, what other island nation on this planet puts bombers ahead of maritime security? Having said that, I personnaly think it will be a very close call for a future MMA to appear in SDSR 15. Fingers crossed eh?
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Old 23rd Nov 2013, 11:27
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Let's not forget that MRA4 was cancelled to save 2 bn over 10 years in support costs. Nine MRA4s was often said to be inadequate, so the minimum fleet of P8s with half the range/endurance must be around 20, so it's looking like an investment of knocking on 3 bn to buy the aircraft, set up the base/infrastructure, provision spares, train the crews etc etc. As Biggus said, where does the money come from? .....anyway the Conservatives have already said the gap can be covered by "other assets". Yes, the HCDC talks a lot of sense, but an appeal by one member for a stay of execution on MRA4, while the HCDC reviewed the decision was roundly rejected by Cameron.

EG
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Old 23rd Nov 2013, 11:36
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mmm Mr Biggus,

you ask should we "... keep something we already have, which works, or reinvest in something we have lost ...?"

Well if the something we have, (Sentinel) allegedly 'works' producing only wide area radar coverage over land - but for which there may be limited future requirement for (or political appetite for).

Then reinventing something we clearly lack but need makes a lot of sense to me.

Skint are we? There seems no end of money being squandered around the country. I feel it is a balancing act of available funds that will be needed to provide the necessary insurance we need to secure our maritime environment.
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Old 23rd Nov 2013, 14:47
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3 bn to buy the aircraft, set up the base/infrastructure, provision spares, train the crews
2.7% of the health budget and only 1.88% of the social security budget - just saying!
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Old 23rd Nov 2013, 15:52
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priorities, priorities, what to do!
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