Identification of this Pilot - is it HRH Duke of York or not?
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Identification of this Pilot - is it HRH Duke of York or not?
Good morning.
This is my first post after a long period of lurking on the forum. I hope you will be gentle with me?
I am currently researching several Falklands related topics for some articles that I am in the process of writing, and I have come across some photos, although not directly related to my current research, I am hoping that some of the rotary members of the FAA of the era might be able to answer.
The photo below were purportedly taken on the 15th June, when members of the Scots Guards were being ferried off of Mt Tumbledown back to MV St Edmund. a couple of the photos appears to show HRH Prince Andrew.
The reason for my question is that the helicopter in question is clearly (at least to me) a Sea King HAS 2 - you can just see the shape of the radome behind the rotors, and therefore most likely to be one of the machines that had the sonar equipment removed and hastily formed into 825 NAS - but the likeness the the prince is uncanny.
and the last image, although a different airframe, shows clearly it was a HAS2.
So, if the Prince was part of 820 NAS and based on Invincible, how can he turn up in a 825 NAS machine that were based on land at this point - or is this a case of mistaken identity - or were some crews of 820 lent to help out with 825, due to fatigue with the overworked Junglie-Pinger crews ?
Thanks in advance
A
This is my first post after a long period of lurking on the forum. I hope you will be gentle with me?
I am currently researching several Falklands related topics for some articles that I am in the process of writing, and I have come across some photos, although not directly related to my current research, I am hoping that some of the rotary members of the FAA of the era might be able to answer. The photo below were purportedly taken on the 15th June, when members of the Scots Guards were being ferried off of Mt Tumbledown back to MV St Edmund. a couple of the photos appears to show HRH Prince Andrew.
The reason for my question is that the helicopter in question is clearly (at least to me) a Sea King HAS 2 - you can just see the shape of the radome behind the rotors, and therefore most likely to be one of the machines that had the sonar equipment removed and hastily formed into 825 NAS - but the likeness the the prince is uncanny.
and the last image, although a different airframe, shows clearly it was a HAS2.
So, if the Prince was part of 820 NAS and based on Invincible, how can he turn up in a 825 NAS machine that were based on land at this point - or is this a case of mistaken identity - or were some crews of 820 lent to help out with 825, due to fatigue with the overworked Junglie-Pinger crews ?
Thanks in advance
A
Last edited by AndySmith; 15th Nov 2013 at 23:37.
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Andy,
Perhaps I can help here. I was an AEO with 820 Sqn from 81 to 83, and served with HRH almost all of that time. I went down to the Falklands, and was part of a two aircraft detachment that went ashore into San Carlos from just before the surrender until just afterwards. HRH was part of that detachment, which was commanded by our Senior Pilot, Lt Cdr Keith Dudley.
Yes, that is 'H' - and he's in an SK2. I assume it's an 825 Sqn cab, but can't confirm that. It's certainly not an 820 machine.
I believe that some of our crews did fly with 825 while we were ashore at San Carlos, and 'H' would certainly have taken his turn.
Hope this helps
Engines
Perhaps I can help here. I was an AEO with 820 Sqn from 81 to 83, and served with HRH almost all of that time. I went down to the Falklands, and was part of a two aircraft detachment that went ashore into San Carlos from just before the surrender until just afterwards. HRH was part of that detachment, which was commanded by our Senior Pilot, Lt Cdr Keith Dudley.
Yes, that is 'H' - and he's in an SK2. I assume it's an 825 Sqn cab, but can't confirm that. It's certainly not an 820 machine.
I believe that some of our crews did fly with 825 while we were ashore at San Carlos, and 'H' would certainly have taken his turn.
Hope this helps
Engines
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Andy,
I was one of the pilots on 825. HRH did not fly with us as I recall and unfortunately I can't identify whether 91 was one of ours or not. It certainly was originally a 706NAS aircraft but again I vaguely recall one or two of our training aircraft being sent to Portsmouth to embark on one of the carriers as extra aircraft.
If you had the a/c registration number I may be able to refer to my logbook.
It does look like HRH but in the wrong aircraft unless 820 NAS had a utility from our number as explained above.
I was one of the pilots on 825. HRH did not fly with us as I recall and unfortunately I can't identify whether 91 was one of ours or not. It certainly was originally a 706NAS aircraft but again I vaguely recall one or two of our training aircraft being sent to Portsmouth to embark on one of the carriers as extra aircraft.
If you had the a/c registration number I may be able to refer to my logbook.
It does look like HRH but in the wrong aircraft unless 820 NAS had a utility from our number as explained above.
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First look at the book 'Falklands the Air War' does not show a HAS2 going south with the code 91, is it 100% certain that the time/location given is correct?
Will keep looking for the aircraft ID
Will keep looking for the aircraft ID
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If the information about the image time/location is wrong and the photo was taken just after the Falklands in late 1982 then the airframe could either be XV663 or XV666
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I don't think 820 crews flew 825 aircraft at any stage. Seaking93 is probably right with his suggestion that the Jun 15th date is not correct.
But who is that in the left hand seat? In the first picture it looks very like Lt Cdr John Skinner ( SP 825). Not so sure when I look at the second picture!
But who is that in the left hand seat? In the first picture it looks very like Lt Cdr John Skinner ( SP 825). Not so sure when I look at the second picture!
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I have an book "Falklands The Air War" in my collection.
It includes details on types operated by various units on both sides including registrations with codes and their deployments/fates etc.
I cannot find any HAS2 or 2A's listed with the code 91.
The only 90's coded ones listed are XV677 (CU/595) and XV648 (CU/597). They are not listed as having any code changes during the deployment.
It includes details on types operated by various units on both sides including registrations with codes and their deployments/fates etc.
I cannot find any HAS2 or 2A's listed with the code 91.
The only 90's coded ones listed are XV677 (CU/595) and XV648 (CU/597). They are not listed as having any code changes during the deployment.
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Done a bit more searching
There is a record of XV663 wearing the code CU/591 while on HMS Hermes in Nov 1982.
However during the Falklands conflict she is recorded as wearing CU/581 thoughout.
This would suggest to me to backup what Seaking93 has suggested in that this photo is slightly than thought.
There is a record of XV663 wearing the code CU/591 while on HMS Hermes in Nov 1982.
However during the Falklands conflict she is recorded as wearing CU/581 thoughout.
This would suggest to me to backup what Seaking93 has suggested in that this photo is slightly than thought.
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If you had the a/c registration number I may be able to refer to my logbook.
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John Skinner was my thought on the left hand seat - only three of us had beards and it is not Ted B or John H! They are wearing camo flying clothing i.e. no goon suit so definitely based ashore. It was not XV663 - I flew that aircraft regularly and it was not 91. The more I look at it the more I don't think it is HRH.
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We haven't got this one cracked yet!
Aircraft - no positive id but it certainly looks like an 825 cab. Clicker's info that 91 was attached to Hermes in Nov 92 could be true but these pictures are typical Falklands shots and Hermes returned home in Jul 82 and didn't go south again.
Crew - I am also not convinced that we are looking at H. 825's P2s came from the 706 AFT course that had just finished, supplemented by 2 from 819. If I recall correctly the following were S/Lts:
Chris Greaves, Brian Evans, Dave Wolstenhome, Paul Lyall - from 706.
Pete Eldridge and Martin Rayner - from 819.
If this is an 825 crew, and there is support for John Skinner in the LHS, I would go for Pete Eldridge.
Aircraft - no positive id but it certainly looks like an 825 cab. Clicker's info that 91 was attached to Hermes in Nov 92 could be true but these pictures are typical Falklands shots and Hermes returned home in Jul 82 and didn't go south again.
Crew - I am also not convinced that we are looking at H. 825's P2s came from the 706 AFT course that had just finished, supplemented by 2 from 819. If I recall correctly the following were S/Lts:
Chris Greaves, Brian Evans, Dave Wolstenhome, Paul Lyall - from 706.
Pete Eldridge and Martin Rayner - from 819.
If this is an 825 crew, and there is support for John Skinner in the LHS, I would go for Pete Eldridge.
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The third photo is also of cab 91, you can just make out the 1 on the nose, so would appear to show the HAS2 in junglie mode with the strop underneath it.
An interesting exercise for the grey matter
An interesting exercise for the grey matter
Thread Starter
Sorry, my first reply had to wait to be moderated. Here is what I posted earlier....
Hi
I was passed these by one of my Argentinian contacts. They are from a series of photos taken aboard MV St Edmund on or around the 15th June, as they embarked Scots Guards from Mt Tumbledown. The date might be wrong, but that is as much as I know. Here are the rest of the photos. Now, whether or not they are all taken on the same day, I don't know, but they give the context. I have asked my contact where he got them from, and as soon as I know, I will pass it on.
And this photo gives the context, with St Edmund on the lifeboat, which I doubt was down south much longer than the end of the conflict....
And I also found this photo on the net this morning while searching for similar photos, and it appears to show the same left-seater.
Back to you guys - a nice little conundrum to solve!
Hi
I was passed these by one of my Argentinian contacts. They are from a series of photos taken aboard MV St Edmund on or around the 15th June, as they embarked Scots Guards from Mt Tumbledown. The date might be wrong, but that is as much as I know. Here are the rest of the photos. Now, whether or not they are all taken on the same day, I don't know, but they give the context. I have asked my contact where he got them from, and as soon as I know, I will pass it on.
And this photo gives the context, with St Edmund on the lifeboat, which I doubt was down south much longer than the end of the conflict....
And I also found this photo on the net this morning while searching for similar photos, and it appears to show the same left-seater.
Back to you guys - a nice little conundrum to solve!
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For those interested the Sea Kings of 825NAS in the Falklands were as follows,
XZ580/272
XV700/264
XV696/268
XV663/581
XV659/584
XV654/585
XV714/586
XV677/595
XV648/597
XV656/703
There is no record of any airframe being re-coded to 91, also no other Sea King in the Task Force is recorded as being coded 91, I am more convinced that the image shows either XV663 or XV666 that are both recorded as being coded 91 at different times in the period from June 1982 to December 1982.
XZ580/272
XV700/264
XV696/268
XV663/581
XV659/584
XV654/585
XV714/586
XV677/595
XV648/597
XV656/703
There is no record of any airframe being re-coded to 91, also no other Sea King in the Task Force is recorded as being coded 91, I am more convinced that the image shows either XV663 or XV666 that are both recorded as being coded 91 at different times in the period from June 1982 to December 1982.
Thread Starter
Hi
All very interesting. As I am new, my replies have to be moderated, and so they appear before the latest reply. Please have a look at the other photos I linked form the same series of photos on st Edmund.
Also there is the photo taken of HRH the day he was in Port Stanley with a bearded fellow pilot. This was the day he was interviewed by the tv where he talked about phoning home to mum.
Is this the same guy in the left hand seat in the cab. HRH is also in cammos.
As far as the codes go, could the documents be wrong, as I am pretty sure that this is from the 15th June.
Thanks for all your help
Andy
All very interesting. As I am new, my replies have to be moderated, and so they appear before the latest reply. Please have a look at the other photos I linked form the same series of photos on st Edmund.
Also there is the photo taken of HRH the day he was in Port Stanley with a bearded fellow pilot. This was the day he was interviewed by the tv where he talked about phoning home to mum.
Is this the same guy in the left hand seat in the cab. HRH is also in cammos.
As far as the codes go, could the documents be wrong, as I am pretty sure that this is from the 15th June.
Thanks for all your help
Andy
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Don't know if this will help but this is what the book states for MV St Edmund.
Requisitioned Harwich 12/5/82 and sailed to Portsmouth.
Sailed for South Atlantic 19/5/82 arriving in TRALA early June.
Joined the CVGB 15/6/82 and proceeded to Port William 16/6/82.
Departed Port Stanley 5/7/82 with 500 senior POW's 5/7/82 and arrived Puerto Madryn 14/7/82.
Returned to Port Stanley and used as an accommodation ship.
Replaced Norland as Ascension shuttle service 11/82. Sailed from Port Stanley 2/83 arriving Solent 25/2/83.
She was later sold to the MoD and used for a shuttle service Falklands-Ascension late 1984 as the MV Keren.
Requisitioned Harwich 12/5/82 and sailed to Portsmouth.
Sailed for South Atlantic 19/5/82 arriving in TRALA early June.
Joined the CVGB 15/6/82 and proceeded to Port William 16/6/82.
Departed Port Stanley 5/7/82 with 500 senior POW's 5/7/82 and arrived Puerto Madryn 14/7/82.
Returned to Port Stanley and used as an accommodation ship.
Replaced Norland as Ascension shuttle service 11/82. Sailed from Port Stanley 2/83 arriving Solent 25/2/83.
She was later sold to the MoD and used for a shuttle service Falklands-Ascension late 1984 as the MV Keren.