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"I also wonder how a Kenyan style attack would play-out in the UK."
Further to 500N's reply.
Several years when I worked for a southern UK police force we had a series of training sessions after the India shootings. As emergency call takers we were trained to recognise what then called an active shooter incident. We were also left in no doubt of that it would take some time for a proper response to be arranged for our county.
The nearest base for any of the armed forces is at least 70 mins drive and outside of our policing area. This does not including the time for callouts and getting the required kit etc.
The police would not have enough firearms officers to contain a shopping mall to any great effect and then it would take a while to get them to the scene as their would be in different parts of the county. You can't have all the eggs in one basket as their often cover any incidents. ie man holding wife hostage with a knife after a domestic.
In fact I would be bold enough to suggest that some countries that have a regular armed police with an army used to controlling their own subjects would be better prepared, at least in manpower, than the UK is.
Several years when I worked for a southern UK police force we had a series of training sessions after the India shootings. As emergency call takers we were trained to recognise what then called an active shooter incident. We were also left in no doubt of that it would take some time for a proper response to be arranged for our county.
The nearest base for any of the armed forces is at least 70 mins drive and outside of our policing area. This does not including the time for callouts and getting the required kit etc.
The police would not have enough firearms officers to contain a shopping mall to any great effect and then it would take a while to get them to the scene as their would be in different parts of the county. You can't have all the eggs in one basket as their often cover any incidents. ie man holding wife hostage with a knife after a domestic.
In fact I would be bold enough to suggest that some countries that have a regular armed police with an army used to controlling their own subjects would be better prepared, at least in manpower, than the UK is.
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Originally Posted by 4ROCK
The fact that the Judge in this case (who I know to be a 'normal' bloke outside of working hours!) took a lenient view in his punishment should be indicative enough of the strength of feeling against the use of drones.
The Guardian
On Monday Lincoln magistrates ordered the activists to pay £10 to the RAF in compensation, £75 in costs and a £15 victim surcharge. Judge John Stobart said he was handing down his sentence "with a very heavy heart" and told the protesters they were "dutiful people".
On Monday Lincoln magistrates ordered the activists to pay £10 to the RAF in compensation, £75 in costs and a £15 victim surcharge. Judge John Stobart said he was handing down his sentence "with a very heavy heart" and told the protesters they were "dutiful people".
Here's a thought; if some dutiful people rocked up to Buck House and painted some anti British/Military/Foreign Policy words on it or one of the garden-side buildings, would Mr Stobart's ultimate boss thank him for his publicly political views? That's the same boss that owns RAF Station Waddington.
I think that is the salient point and all weeping and wailing over Regiment/RAFP security standards is understandable but largely irrelevant.
Whilst I disagree with the protestors arguments vis-a-vis drones, I'm not sure their lenient sentencing nor the judges comments will send the message that it's open season on UK military installations.
As demonstrated by the link I posted earlier about the Fairford B-52 protesters, and the Indonesian Hawk protesters before them ( pounds 1.5m Hawk attack women freed - News - The Independent ), direct action of this sort has always been something of a British tradition (as has the subsequent lenient sentencing).
It didn't open the flood gates then, and I don't suppose it will now.
As demonstrated by the link I posted earlier about the Fairford B-52 protesters, and the Indonesian Hawk protesters before them ( pounds 1.5m Hawk attack women freed - News - The Independent ), direct action of this sort has always been something of a British tradition (as has the subsequent lenient sentencing).
It didn't open the flood gates then, and I don't suppose it will now.
Last edited by melmothtw; 15th Oct 2013 at 12:24.
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I bite too.
I used to find these stories disturbing because they can and probably will on day end so badly. Im not against ligit protest per se at all, in fact Im probably all for it. I fully understand these people are saddened and fully against the drone wars, indeed all the wars. Who isnt?
Busting into MOD bases in the UK is potentially really easy-everyone knows this. Yeovilton was the easiest base to get into by a mile and still is. Followed by Culdrose. I never got over how you could jump into VL via the number 2/3/4 crash gate and all that lay between yourself and all the entire frontline SHAR fleet was a single dodgy wooden hangar access door (possibly left unlocked by the duty squadron kid) round the back and facing the river/fields. MOD cops were half a mile away, the hangar building was unalarmed and un sentried. A set police security routine was easy to learn and easier to avoid.
My point-I havent got one really other than if security does come across these bints are they likely to challenge them-if spotted yes. Ever likely to mis ID them as something worse than what they are?? Is possible. Shoot them? (as some on here would like I guess)-unlikely because you and I know what a hammering you would get in court by the QCs if you did. Look how the police catch it in court every time they knock off a gang banger/nice boy really.
Presently fortune and court room favours the tresspasser always in the Uk in these events, and never the defender.
All this said I would never try to bust into a Yankee base for the exact reason you would be blasted by gunfire if spotted, simple as. Yanks willl never ever give up one of their own men no matter how low a ranker in those circumastances.
Would MOD do the same=doubt it (see past times).
In the UK you get a ticking off for tresspass, every time.
We will get caught out one day over this mark my words.
And as for those who think I am slack for bubbling on about security at MOD Navy bases, well...sorry but maybe blabbing now will help someone pay attention and buck up a bit.
Busting into MOD bases in the UK is potentially really easy-everyone knows this. Yeovilton was the easiest base to get into by a mile and still is. Followed by Culdrose. I never got over how you could jump into VL via the number 2/3/4 crash gate and all that lay between yourself and all the entire frontline SHAR fleet was a single dodgy wooden hangar access door (possibly left unlocked by the duty squadron kid) round the back and facing the river/fields. MOD cops were half a mile away, the hangar building was unalarmed and un sentried. A set police security routine was easy to learn and easier to avoid.
My point-I havent got one really other than if security does come across these bints are they likely to challenge them-if spotted yes. Ever likely to mis ID them as something worse than what they are?? Is possible. Shoot them? (as some on here would like I guess)-unlikely because you and I know what a hammering you would get in court by the QCs if you did. Look how the police catch it in court every time they knock off a gang banger/nice boy really.
Presently fortune and court room favours the tresspasser always in the Uk in these events, and never the defender.
All this said I would never try to bust into a Yankee base for the exact reason you would be blasted by gunfire if spotted, simple as. Yanks willl never ever give up one of their own men no matter how low a ranker in those circumastances.
Would MOD do the same=doubt it (see past times).
In the UK you get a ticking off for tresspass, every time.
We will get caught out one day over this mark my words.
And as for those who think I am slack for bubbling on about security at MOD Navy bases, well...sorry but maybe blabbing now will help someone pay attention and buck up a bit.
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Softies!
The perimeter fence of an installation conducting operations in Afghanistan was breached.
1. Fire the SWO & OC RAFP. Replace with competent pers.
2. Position fire truck inside perimeter facing the troublemakers. If they attempt a breach, repel with water.
3. If they evade the water, apprehend.
4. Sling them in the cells.
5. Strip search and remove clothing. Issue coveralls. Break their dignity.
When satisfied that no further threat to the station exists, call CivPol to remove them. Once they cut the fence and enter, it is a service matter until the Stn Cdr is satisfied that the threat has been dealt with.
The fact that it is some silly old bag in the photo is neither here nor there.
The perimeter fence of an installation conducting operations in Afghanistan was breached.
1. Fire the SWO & OC RAFP. Replace with competent pers.
2. Position fire truck inside perimeter facing the troublemakers. If they attempt a breach, repel with water.
3. If they evade the water, apprehend.
4. Sling them in the cells.
5. Strip search and remove clothing. Issue coveralls. Break their dignity.
When satisfied that no further threat to the station exists, call CivPol to remove them. Once they cut the fence and enter, it is a service matter until the Stn Cdr is satisfied that the threat has been dealt with.
The fact that it is some silly old bag in the photo is neither here nor there.
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Ok roadster but if you strip someone for that reason in any civilised country it's you who will end up behind bars and rightly so. Are you a serviceman? If so perhaps you'd fit in better somewhere totalitarian like North Korea or Syria.
Can we really dismiss the legal issues as irrelevant when they were the raison d'être for the protest which is the subject of this thread? I accept ours aren't being used for assassinations but you can't blame people suffering post-Blair cynism and making that link. RPAS are rapidly becoming more widely available. If we dismiss the legalities of their use now it may bite us hard in years to come.
Can we really dismiss the legal issues as irrelevant when they were the raison d'être for the protest which is the subject of this thread? I accept ours aren't being used for assassinations but you can't blame people suffering post-Blair cynism and making that link. RPAS are rapidly becoming more widely available. If we dismiss the legalities of their use now it may bite us hard in years to come.
Last edited by ShotOne; 15th Oct 2013 at 14:05.
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I used to be a serviceman.
How does one know if the old bag making a pain in the ass of herself is the extent of the problem, and a sharp word at the WI will cure it, or whether she/they are a diversion for something more serious?
One doesn't know. Maybe strip-searching is a little too far, but assuming that it was a relatively innocent protest is a pretty big assumption to have made when it has all gone tits up.
How does one know if the old bag making a pain in the ass of herself is the extent of the problem, and a sharp word at the WI will cure it, or whether she/they are a diversion for something more serious?
One doesn't know. Maybe strip-searching is a little too far, but assuming that it was a relatively innocent protest is a pretty big assumption to have made when it has all gone tits up.
Roadster...
I was trying to make a similar point in an earlier post but was met by a sarcastic response. The questions I asked were the very same that was asked of us when we were doing our annual waste-of-two-good-days aka GDT. It was the Rocks who asked the question and their answer was always "Could be anyone".
I was trying to make a similar point in an earlier post but was met by a sarcastic response. The questions I asked were the very same that was asked of us when we were doing our annual waste-of-two-good-days aka GDT. It was the Rocks who asked the question and their answer was always "Could be anyone".
Leon,
So why did you join the military? Was it to carry out your country's "dirty work"? Or was it to uphold and protect the values of your country? i joined up for the latter.
I'm all for using drones for reconnaissance - but not for remote killing.
Personally, I felt a great deal of pride and virtue in putting my own life on line to defend a way of life that I valued during my time in the services. I have huge admiration for our current armed forces. However, I am repulsed by the concept of using robotic drones to fight wars. It is the modern equivalent of mustard gas in WW1.
Leon, am I correct in remembering you as the pilot who thinks it cool to scare cats by low level flying? May explain a lot...
OK, I'll bite. Having been in several campaigns in the air and one on the ground, there is no virtue in having to do your country's dirty work - manned or unmanned. You Sir, need to go back to reading your Warlord comic or Battle weekly!
I'm all for using drones for reconnaissance - but not for remote killing.
Personally, I felt a great deal of pride and virtue in putting my own life on line to defend a way of life that I valued during my time in the services. I have huge admiration for our current armed forces. However, I am repulsed by the concept of using robotic drones to fight wars. It is the modern equivalent of mustard gas in WW1.
Leon, am I correct in remembering you as the pilot who thinks it cool to scare cats by low level flying? May explain a lot...
Last edited by Trim Stab; 15th Oct 2013 at 18:28.
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Trim
"I'm all for using drones for reconnaissance - but not for remote killing."
Genuine question.
What is the difference between a Predator loitering in the sky above some Taliba and after they pick up firearms and fire at our troops firing a Hellfire missile at them as opposed to calling in B2 bomber to drop a GPS guided bomb from 10kms away ?
The same objective is achieved, but the B2 crew don't see the target whereas the UAV crew do.
"I'm all for using drones for reconnaissance - but not for remote killing."
Genuine question.
What is the difference between a Predator loitering in the sky above some Taliba and after they pick up firearms and fire at our troops firing a Hellfire missile at them as opposed to calling in B2 bomber to drop a GPS guided bomb from 10kms away ?
The same objective is achieved, but the B2 crew don't see the target whereas the UAV crew do.
Last edited by 500N; 15th Oct 2013 at 18:28.
The same objective is achieved, but the B2 crew don't see the target whereas the UAV crew do.
Throughout the history of warfare, valour has been applauded and celebrated. Once there is no more valour in warfare, where would it end? We already deride "terrorists" for their "cowardly" use of IEDs and bombs - so if we also retaliate without risk to ourselves how will we ever win?
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We will never know the 'head count' from UK Reaper ops for obvious reasons - but the fact that we are sending armed drones into a war zone (and Pakistan one presumes?!) really does not square up to people's assertions that the UK Reapers are purely for reconnaissance missions.
Unless of course they have missiles for self defence?!
Interesting comparison to Subs that someone made - but as far as I'm aware they normally have blokes (and women now?!) on board who have to push a button to fire the unmanned bit....a bit more sporting than the old Grim Reaper!
Unless of course they have missiles for self defence?!
Interesting comparison to Subs that someone made - but as far as I'm aware they normally have blokes (and women now?!) on board who have to push a button to fire the unmanned bit....a bit more sporting than the old Grim Reaper!
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On the news tonight an article which shows how our Russian friends deal with protesting trespassers.
3 weeks ago a Greenpeace group were captured by balaclava wearing operatives trying to board a Russian Oil Rig in the Arctic. They were in court in Murmansk today seeking bail. The judge refused bail to all defendants so they are back in the nick.
3 weeks ago a Greenpeace group were captured by balaclava wearing operatives trying to board a Russian Oil Rig in the Arctic. They were in court in Murmansk today seeking bail. The judge refused bail to all defendants so they are back in the nick.
What about if someone deemed the use of ship launch Tomahawk Missiles as an example.
Interesting discussion.
Interesting discussion.
I am uncomfortable that our technological prowess over most of those whom we consider to be "enemy" allows our combatants to extinguish enemy life without any challenge to their valour.
Hmmm. So we have to be exposed to a certain level of risk for our warfighting to be deemed acceptable?
What level of risk is that then? Should we ban body armour and helmets? Should we get rid of those wimpy liferafts attached to ejection seats? Maybe the rot set in when we started giving our aircrew parachutes in the first place!
Patton had it right - it's about getting the other poor bastard to die for his!
What level of risk is that then? Should we ban body armour and helmets? Should we get rid of those wimpy liferafts attached to ejection seats? Maybe the rot set in when we started giving our aircrew parachutes in the first place!
Patton had it right - it's about getting the other poor bastard to die for his!
Trim
If I recall correctly, you are ex TA? If I am correct, then I'll put it in Army speak for you:
You could fire this piece of kit within the safe borders of your country against the bad boys in another country (OK, about 25 miles away). The guys inside the GMLRS are not in danger, they cannot see their enemy, so what is the difference?
You don't have to stand toe-to-toe with a gladius in hand to fight it out these days! You can still exercise courageous restraint from a RPAS/UAS and also you have better SA than most on the battlefield even though you may be some 4000 miles away.
LJ
If I recall correctly, you are ex TA? If I am correct, then I'll put it in Army speak for you:
You could fire this piece of kit within the safe borders of your country against the bad boys in another country (OK, about 25 miles away). The guys inside the GMLRS are not in danger, they cannot see their enemy, so what is the difference?
You don't have to stand toe-to-toe with a gladius in hand to fight it out these days! You can still exercise courageous restraint from a RPAS/UAS and also you have better SA than most on the battlefield even though you may be some 4000 miles away.
LJ
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Back in the Day
Many years ago, in the days of the white Valiant (543 Sqn, RAF Wyton), the great unwashed were threatening a break in, flush with their success at Fylingdales.
The airmen were given a pick axe handle each and told "None Shall Pass", but they weren't to touch any of the "peaceful" protesters. One young man was v v pi**ed off at being made to wander about on a lovely summer's day (it was a Sunday). One of the yobs, accompanied by the local press, climbed the fence and shouted to the airman that he wanted to come in. The airman told him to f*** off!
The next day the local paper reported that after a request for admittance, an RAF spokesman said that it was not possible!
plus ça change
The airmen were given a pick axe handle each and told "None Shall Pass", but they weren't to touch any of the "peaceful" protesters. One young man was v v pi**ed off at being made to wander about on a lovely summer's day (it was a Sunday). One of the yobs, accompanied by the local press, climbed the fence and shouted to the airman that he wanted to come in. The airman told him to f*** off!
The next day the local paper reported that after a request for admittance, an RAF spokesman said that it was not possible!
plus ça change