Any spare troops/fire engines chaps?
Appreciated Smudge........next time I'm in Wiltshire, you're on!
Your contributions always make for interesting reading, so keep 'em coming! Like I said once before, you guys belonged to an air force I wanted to join but wasn't good enough, and I know I'm gonna get some grief now that I've "come out" but what the hell eh.....I still have massive respect for those who served, and indeed those who serve!
Best wishes mate
Dave
Your contributions always make for interesting reading, so keep 'em coming! Like I said once before, you guys belonged to an air force I wanted to join but wasn't good enough, and I know I'm gonna get some grief now that I've "come out" but what the hell eh.....I still have massive respect for those who served, and indeed those who serve!
Best wishes mate
Dave
I think if building regulations stipulated the need for a 50gal resrvoir, sensor and sprinkler, we would not need a fire service and we would save the lives of thousands of dole scroungers killed by their own fag-end down the sofa.
wets
(caution - may contain irony)
wets
(caution - may contain irony)
Gr4.........they are by far, technically speaking, the most challenging jobs......especially when you consider all the safety systems in cars just waiting to bite you on the a*se!
Sorry to drag this up, but it is topical at the moment.
Now I've done a little bit of research and found that the recommended level of fitness is going to be a VO2 Max score of 42 or above - this equates to about Level 8-6 in the beep test. However, it further states that Firefighters won't be dismissed from operational duties until they are below a VO2 Max score of 35 (about Level 6-7), but some reading has shown that those between 35-42 VO2 max will be singled out for extra phys training to help them improve. Wonder why I post this on the Mil forum? Does it sound familiar?
Yes - http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafi...2735D95037.doc
The link above shows our current multi-stage fitness standards. Guess what? We are asking no higher level of fitness from civil fire fighters than what we ask of the RAF.
So if the military have to achieve a standard of fitness that is for all including Adminers, Trainers, Engineers, Aircrew, Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists then why, oh, why should it be so very hard for the personnel of the Fire and Rescue Service to achieve? They are supposed to be this uber-fit bunch of individuals that they'd have us all believe. Also, FTRS(HC) and FTRS(LC) can serve to 65 as long as they achieve the required fitness standard
I think the FBU are being a little economical with the truth and I don't believe that they are being asked to keep a ridiculous level of fitness as they would have you believe.
The B Word
Notes
Link to fireman's fitness standards according to FBU http://www.img.fbu.org.uk/wp-content...r-Work-IOM.pdf
Independant study into required fitness standards http://www.firefitsteeringgroup.co.uk/kevinsykes.pdf
The FBU says many firefighters will not be able to maintain fitness standards into their late 50s and this endangers the public.
Yes - http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafi...2735D95037.doc
The link above shows our current multi-stage fitness standards. Guess what? We are asking no higher level of fitness from civil fire fighters than what we ask of the RAF.
So if the military have to achieve a standard of fitness that is for all including Adminers, Trainers, Engineers, Aircrew, Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists then why, oh, why should it be so very hard for the personnel of the Fire and Rescue Service to achieve? They are supposed to be this uber-fit bunch of individuals that they'd have us all believe. Also, FTRS(HC) and FTRS(LC) can serve to 65 as long as they achieve the required fitness standard
I think the FBU are being a little economical with the truth and I don't believe that they are being asked to keep a ridiculous level of fitness as they would have you believe.
The B Word
Notes
Link to fireman's fitness standards according to FBU http://www.img.fbu.org.uk/wp-content...r-Work-IOM.pdf
Independant study into required fitness standards http://www.firefitsteeringgroup.co.uk/kevinsykes.pdf
Last edited by The B Word; 3rd Jan 2014 at 01:04.
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Military Firefighters were out covering the strikes over Xmas and New Years Eve.
Yep it got scant news coverage, possibly deliberately but both Yeovilton and Culdrose deployed servicemen on Xmas eve, NYE and I think NYD to cover the short 6 hour odd strikes. These were the Aircraft Handler fire crews from both sections, with numbers up to about 14+ I believe. Cocked their leave up and more but when did the FBU ever give a *£ck about things like that anyway?
Think the RAF lads were involved as well, not sure on the fine detail.
FBU are kissing their jobs goodbye because they and all know that for better or worse the Fire Service will be privatised and run by God knows who within 5 to 10 years anyway.
Think the RAF lads were involved as well, not sure on the fine detail.
FBU are kissing their jobs goodbye because they and all know that for better or worse the Fire Service will be privatised and run by God knows who within 5 to 10 years anyway.
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Cocked their leave up and more but when did the FBU ever give a *£ck about things like that anyway?
FBU are kissing their jobs goodbye because they and all know that for better or worse the Fire Service will be privatised and run by God knows who within 5 to 10 years anyway.
Govt: "We are not going to give you a payrise inline with inflation. Cut your pension and get rid off your best assets."
Only a £cking Idiot: "Oh ok then. Thats the way it is and who am I to question the system?"
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I have a family member who's a Firefighter (Special Rescue) ... she and almost everyone else on the Team are non-FBU members.
Make of that what you will.
Make of that what you will.
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I have a family member who's a Firefighter (Special Rescue) ... she and almost everyone else on the Team are non-FBU members.
Make of that what you will....
Make of that what you will....
Some young pups at work confessed to never voting. Then the young pups wonder why politicians take no interest in them.
Letter in The Times a few days ago with someone wondering why they dont bring "the troops" in to help out during the recent floods. Another one under the impression that we have a vast standing army sitting around with nothing to do (see my post #10 above).
I thought that, like far too many things these days, provision of emergency cover in the event of a firefighters strike had been "outsourced" to a civil contractor (Serco rings a bell), and that the Green Goddesses had been sold off to a country in Africa.
Therefore, I was under the impression that the military should no longer be involved in a firefighters strike. Am I mistaken?
Therefore, I was under the impression that the military should no longer be involved in a firefighters strike. Am I mistaken?
Biggus
You are mistaken. Look at the bottom of page 2 of this Army document to see why you've seen little about it - http://www.rfca-yorkshire.org.uk/wp-...iefscript2.pdf
LJ
PS. more here http://mfra.merseyfire.gov.uk/docume...20Planning.pdf
And here on page 3 http://www.rfca-yorkshire.org.uk/wp-...iefscript1.pdf
And here on page 3 https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...SPA_review.pdf
And here at the 5th paragraph The VIEW FROM THE WATERFRONT | OnetoOne Online
And a picture of some of the fire engines at Wittering on the RAF Fire Fighters' Assoc site http://www.rafanddfsa.co.uk/Witt4.jpg
You are mistaken. Look at the bottom of page 2 of this Army document to see why you've seen little about it - http://www.rfca-yorkshire.org.uk/wp-...iefscript2.pdf
LJ
PS. more here http://mfra.merseyfire.gov.uk/docume...20Planning.pdf
And here on page 3 http://www.rfca-yorkshire.org.uk/wp-...iefscript1.pdf
And here on page 3 https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...SPA_review.pdf
And here at the 5th paragraph The VIEW FROM THE WATERFRONT | OnetoOne Online
And a picture of some of the fire engines at Wittering on the RAF Fire Fighters' Assoc site http://www.rafanddfsa.co.uk/Witt4.jpg
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 4th Jan 2014 at 11:38.
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Been going on for months
Biggus its been going on for months. Yeovilton dropped their fire crews down to a minimum level ages ago and have been concentrating upon supplying emergency fire cover at v short notice. Culdrose the same I am led to believe.
Had a major effect on individuals concerned as we would imagine. But the show goes on, safety cover was still supplied to both RNAS and the 2 satellites - the individual sections/people take the hit. Life in a blue one and one of the reasons I went out the door.
RNAS used to operate 5 full fire crews to keep 365 cover going. 2 at the Air Station on 24 about, 2 at the satellite in a similarish vein and 1 in a weeks training. Rotate every 5 weeks. Generally a good system for one and all, but now long gone for a variety of reasons.
LJ good links - why are the Government so keen to keep this out of the
news?
* Understand why the FBU think they have cause to go on strike, but I don't understand the vindictive manner in its organization and implementation. Like a 6 hour strike on Xmas eve meant maximum disruption for young servicemen and women, generally screwed their holiday up, made it dangerous for them to travel about after the strike in the small hours of Xmas day etc. Just a twats trick, in my civvy opinion.
The FBU and firemen have generally lost my good will since 2002. I was involved, I know how you did it and what you did and I wont forget.
Had a major effect on individuals concerned as we would imagine. But the show goes on, safety cover was still supplied to both RNAS and the 2 satellites - the individual sections/people take the hit. Life in a blue one and one of the reasons I went out the door.
RNAS used to operate 5 full fire crews to keep 365 cover going. 2 at the Air Station on 24 about, 2 at the satellite in a similarish vein and 1 in a weeks training. Rotate every 5 weeks. Generally a good system for one and all, but now long gone for a variety of reasons.
LJ good links - why are the Government so keen to keep this out of the
news?
* Understand why the FBU think they have cause to go on strike, but I don't understand the vindictive manner in its organization and implementation. Like a 6 hour strike on Xmas eve meant maximum disruption for young servicemen and women, generally screwed their holiday up, made it dangerous for them to travel about after the strike in the small hours of Xmas day etc. Just a twats trick, in my civvy opinion.
The FBU and firemen have generally lost my good will since 2002. I was involved, I know how you did it and what you did and I wont forget.
Hangarshuffle
I don't know, but I would imagine the Govt wants to keep the strikes out of the press until the changes are 'done and dusted' to the pensions. I believe it becomes statute in April and then it is a case of 'like it or lump it'.
The RAF's professional firefighters and the Defence Fire and Rescue Service have also taken a significant hit in the same manner as your shippers at EGDY and EGDR. I was surprised to see so much on the open internet in the links above when many have been asked to minimise any talk of it. Seeing as we've been at this since Aug 13, I'm surprised more hasn't been said.
Whilst I know it is the FBU's right to dispute with industrial action, personally I have little sympathy. I believe that there are far better, more intelligent, ways of raising a grievance with your employer than the good old antiquated strike - the only losers normally being the strikers who don't get paid, 'burn their bridges' with their employer and damaging their prestigious image with the general public. Media campaigns, organised marches, engagement with opposition MPs and working with national employer's representation is a far better way. However, as the FBU's Mr Wrack is in with the other socialist bunch like Mr Crow (RMT), Tony Woodley (TGWU) and others, I suspect this is more about there being a centre-right government in power than anything else. He is a member of the so called "Awkward Squad" who want to regain the Labour Party for socialism.
As I understand it, the RAF firefighting branch is already at full stretch with many deployments and a normal 24on/24off pattern being too much to bear for some. I heard a rumour the other day that ~60% of a 35-strong fire section were on PVR/ET! Whilst it's not that hard to become a firefighter, it is the experience that the individual gains and we lose when they leave that is hard to replace.
Finally, why should our HMForces firefighters have to endure poorer pensions and have to work to age 60 for a full pension under AFPS15 when compared to the FBU's firefighters? I just don't see what makes them so special when compared to the rest of us, that have to meet similar fitness standards to age 60 (or even 65 if FTRS!) plus pass annual medicals.
LJ
I don't know, but I would imagine the Govt wants to keep the strikes out of the press until the changes are 'done and dusted' to the pensions. I believe it becomes statute in April and then it is a case of 'like it or lump it'.
The RAF's professional firefighters and the Defence Fire and Rescue Service have also taken a significant hit in the same manner as your shippers at EGDY and EGDR. I was surprised to see so much on the open internet in the links above when many have been asked to minimise any talk of it. Seeing as we've been at this since Aug 13, I'm surprised more hasn't been said.
Whilst I know it is the FBU's right to dispute with industrial action, personally I have little sympathy. I believe that there are far better, more intelligent, ways of raising a grievance with your employer than the good old antiquated strike - the only losers normally being the strikers who don't get paid, 'burn their bridges' with their employer and damaging their prestigious image with the general public. Media campaigns, organised marches, engagement with opposition MPs and working with national employer's representation is a far better way. However, as the FBU's Mr Wrack is in with the other socialist bunch like Mr Crow (RMT), Tony Woodley (TGWU) and others, I suspect this is more about there being a centre-right government in power than anything else. He is a member of the so called "Awkward Squad" who want to regain the Labour Party for socialism.
As I understand it, the RAF firefighting branch is already at full stretch with many deployments and a normal 24on/24off pattern being too much to bear for some. I heard a rumour the other day that ~60% of a 35-strong fire section were on PVR/ET! Whilst it's not that hard to become a firefighter, it is the experience that the individual gains and we lose when they leave that is hard to replace.
Finally, why should our HMForces firefighters have to endure poorer pensions and have to work to age 60 for a full pension under AFPS15 when compared to the FBU's firefighters? I just don't see what makes them so special when compared to the rest of us, that have to meet similar fitness standards to age 60 (or even 65 if FTRS!) plus pass annual medicals.
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 5th Jan 2014 at 15:25.
PS. From the look of the following link, it takes 8 weeks and £7.5k to train a firefighter to a reasonable and recognised level of competency. Not bad for a £29k pa job - no wonder they are oversubscribed!
Fire Service College -
Not bad at all - where do I sign! 
Fire Service College -
There is a nationally agreed salary structure for firefighters. The starting salary for a trainee firefighter is £21,157. When full competence is achieved, this rises to £28,199. Higher rates apply for overtime.
Crew manager salaries range from £29,971 (development) to £31,263 (competent) and watch manger salaries range from £31,940-£34,961.
A station manager's earning potential is between £36,365 and £40,109 plus overtime rates, subject to the officer's level of competence. Further advancement to the role of group manager and then area manager attracts salaries of between £41,881 and £53,934, depending on the level of competence.
There are two types of firefighter: whole-time and retained. Whole-time members generally work in urban areas, whereas retained firefighters tend to cover rural areas, responding to pagers when an emergency call is received. A retained firefighter must live or work within five minutes of the fire station. Most brigades offer several types of retained contract based on different levels of commitment.
Working hours typically include regular unsocial hours. Firefighters usually work in shifts - most work two day shifts followed by two night shifts and then have four days off. However, different services employ different duty systems, depending on their needs. When necessary, paid overtime is worked.
Job-sharing and part-time work are possible.
Self-employment/freelance work may be possible, depending on shift patterns, but is more likely to occur after retirement. Opportunities might include consultancy or training.
Crew manager salaries range from £29,971 (development) to £31,263 (competent) and watch manger salaries range from £31,940-£34,961.
A station manager's earning potential is between £36,365 and £40,109 plus overtime rates, subject to the officer's level of competence. Further advancement to the role of group manager and then area manager attracts salaries of between £41,881 and £53,934, depending on the level of competence.
There are two types of firefighter: whole-time and retained. Whole-time members generally work in urban areas, whereas retained firefighters tend to cover rural areas, responding to pagers when an emergency call is received. A retained firefighter must live or work within five minutes of the fire station. Most brigades offer several types of retained contract based on different levels of commitment.
Working hours typically include regular unsocial hours. Firefighters usually work in shifts - most work two day shifts followed by two night shifts and then have four days off. However, different services employ different duty systems, depending on their needs. When necessary, paid overtime is worked.
Job-sharing and part-time work are possible.
Self-employment/freelance work may be possible, depending on shift patterns, but is more likely to occur after retirement. Opportunities might include consultancy or training.
Whilst I know it is the FBU's right to dispute with industrial action, personally I have little sympathy. I believe that there are far better, more intelligent, ways of raising a grievance with your employer than the good old antiquated strike
Hangarshuffle
The FBU and firemen have generally lost my good will since 2002. I was involved, I know how you did it and what you did and I wont forget.
MPD
If you had quoted the rest of my post the answer was already there:
For example, a media campaign worked well for the Gurkhas - no striking! Help4Heroes, underwritten by a national newspaper, made the MoD sit up and listen to improve the medical services for our wounded - no strikes!
I really do think that the majority of firefighters don't realise what they have done - they have played right into the hands of classic socialist anti-capitalism opposition.
The dirty tricks brigade were definately at hand during Op FRESCO by trying to catch out the Goverment's resilience measures - calling strikes, "on the bus, off the bus".
Calling the recent strikes on Bonfire Night weekend, Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve when fireworks and lots of people do stupid things - I suspect this is what Hangarshuffle is getting at. Now I know that the average FBU firefighter won't have selected the dates/times but it doesn't help anyone and certainly damages the mantra of the FBU of "we always have public safety in mind".
I'm sure that we would all like a pension at age 55, but quite frankly as we're all living into our 80s and beyond I can see that it isn't affordable. Maybe if the Government started us all smoking again, stopped pushing for healthy lifestyles and winding up a lot of care under the NHS and then we could afford age 55 pensions again!
Anyway, I really do respect the work of Fire and Rescue Service and I believe you are well remunerated for what you do to serve. The reason why I feel the need to post my thoughts is that I want firefighters to know that they don't have the support of any of the people who I have met (even a Guardian reader!). I also cannot believe that the FBU will break the Government as they would have to cave in on all the pension changes for the rest of the Public Services (Civil Sevice, Police, HMForces, etc...) - sadly, all I can see happening is the destruction of the Fire and Rescue Service as we know it and a bunch of good guys, believing they are doing the right thing, losing wages which they cannot afford to lose.
For all of your sakes, I hope I am wrong...
Best
LJ
If you had quoted the rest of my post the answer was already there:
Whilst I know it is the FBU's right to dispute with industrial action, personally I have little sympathy. I believe that there are far better, more intelligent, ways of raising a grievance with your employer than the good old antiquated strike - the only losers normally being the strikers who don't get paid, 'burn their bridges' with their employer and damaging their prestigious image with the general public. Media campaigns, organised marches, engagement with opposition MPs and working with national employer's representation is a far better way. However, as the FBU's Mr Wrack is in with the other socialist bunch like Mr Crow (RMT), Tony Woodley (TGWU) and others, I suspect this is more about there being a centre-right government in power than anything else. He is a member of the so called "Awkward Squad" who want to regain the Labour Party for socialism.
I really do think that the majority of firefighters don't realise what they have done - they have played right into the hands of classic socialist anti-capitalism opposition.
The dirty tricks brigade were definately at hand during Op FRESCO by trying to catch out the Goverment's resilience measures - calling strikes, "on the bus, off the bus".
Calling the recent strikes on Bonfire Night weekend, Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve when fireworks and lots of people do stupid things - I suspect this is what Hangarshuffle is getting at. Now I know that the average FBU firefighter won't have selected the dates/times but it doesn't help anyone and certainly damages the mantra of the FBU of "we always have public safety in mind".
I'm sure that we would all like a pension at age 55, but quite frankly as we're all living into our 80s and beyond I can see that it isn't affordable. Maybe if the Government started us all smoking again, stopped pushing for healthy lifestyles and winding up a lot of care under the NHS and then we could afford age 55 pensions again!
Anyway, I really do respect the work of Fire and Rescue Service and I believe you are well remunerated for what you do to serve. The reason why I feel the need to post my thoughts is that I want firefighters to know that they don't have the support of any of the people who I have met (even a Guardian reader!). I also cannot believe that the FBU will break the Government as they would have to cave in on all the pension changes for the rest of the Public Services (Civil Sevice, Police, HMForces, etc...) - sadly, all I can see happening is the destruction of the Fire and Rescue Service as we know it and a bunch of good guys, believing they are doing the right thing, losing wages which they cannot afford to lose.
For all of your sakes, I hope I am wrong...
Best
LJ
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LJ
IMHO, the nature of the FBU industrial action has much to do with the leaders of the affiliated unions coordinating industrial action most likely to get media attention rather than action that is most likely to achieve results.
I say this because I am in a dispute where this is clearly (to me) taking place. A strike ballot with a feeble turnout (~32%) showed a clear preference for action short of a strike and weaker support for a strike. However, national leadership started with strikes which will have limited effect compared to cleaver ASOS. A re-run of the failed pensions dispute and doomed to have the same non-success unless headlines are the objective.
LM
IMHO, the nature of the FBU industrial action has much to do with the leaders of the affiliated unions coordinating industrial action most likely to get media attention rather than action that is most likely to achieve results.
I say this because I am in a dispute where this is clearly (to me) taking place. A strike ballot with a feeble turnout (~32%) showed a clear preference for action short of a strike and weaker support for a strike. However, national leadership started with strikes which will have limited effect compared to cleaver ASOS. A re-run of the failed pensions dispute and doomed to have the same non-success unless headlines are the objective.
LM
OAP
What like this and this?
http://www.sppa.gov.uk/Documents/Fir...Aug%202007.pdf - firefighter's compensation
http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/getm...9E64D02EFC3008 - armed force's compensation
It all seems pretty fair and equitable. They have even set it out in plain English:
Here is where this quote came from: https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._the_facts.pdf
It all seems perfectly above board and fair to me?
What like this and this?
http://www.sppa.gov.uk/Documents/Fir...Aug%202007.pdf - firefighter's compensation
http://www.raf.mod.uk/community/getm...9E64D02EFC3008 - armed force's compensation
It all seems pretty fair and equitable. They have even set it out in plain English:
What happens if I lose my fitness after age 55?
The 2015 scheme makes no changes to fitness or capability tests or regimes, which are a matter for employers. In the same way as the current 1992 and 2006 schemes, if it is determined that you are permanently unable, due to a medical condition, to undertake the role of a firefighter you will be given ill‐health retirement. If there is no medical reason to prevent you regaining your fitness, you will be given the opportunity to regain your fitness and the great majority of firefighters are able to do so.
The 2015 scheme makes no changes to fitness or capability tests or regimes, which are a matter for employers. In the same way as the current 1992 and 2006 schemes, if it is determined that you are permanently unable, due to a medical condition, to undertake the role of a firefighter you will be given ill‐health retirement. If there is no medical reason to prevent you regaining your fitness, you will be given the opportunity to regain your fitness and the great majority of firefighters are able to do so.
It all seems perfectly above board and fair to me?
Last edited by The B Word; 5th Jan 2014 at 21:52.
