RAF Club Thread: Not in Good Health
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I'm surprised that anyone would waste their August bank holiday (especially with such cracking weather too) arguing rather pointlessly about the RAF Club. I became eligible to use the facility in 1976. I went there once, during my officer training, when we were introduced to its "delights" during a London visit.
I found it to be a stuffy old place to be honest and therefore I haven't ever bothered to go back since, even though I do stay over in that neck of the woods quite often.
I found it to be a stuffy old place to be honest and therefore I haven't ever bothered to go back since, even though I do stay over in that neck of the woods quite often.
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I'm surprised that anyone would waste their August bank holiday (especially with such cracking weather too) arguing rather pointlessly about the RAF Club.
Had the weather been kinder this morning I would have fluged down to Bruntingthorpe to see the noisy jets running up and down the runway. Sadly it was foggles in Lincoln this a.m.
And no argument is pointless to an Englishman. Mind you as a clattercopter driver I'll excuse you the rational thinking...
Last edited by thing; 27th Aug 2013 at 00:16.
Winco,
Oh dear, does that mean that branch officers and those who commission from the ranks cannot be members?
I have a great deal of sympathy for you and I agree with most of what you say. I find it a great shame that the likes of other ranks are barred from using the facility when frankly anyone else can, as long as you have never been non commissioned.
Oh dear, does that mean that branch officers and those who commission from the ranks cannot be members?
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Cuefaye:
I might have to slip dates a day or two... Sister wants a big family Xmas but she wants it early so she, nephew and nieces can spend this year with her outlaws since we did last year with mum and dad... Hopefully it won't mess us up too much... Love to Judith...
AA
You are truly the expert in winding people up - but as a member of the Club, I don't know how you maintain your pretence. See you in December!
You are truly the expert in winding people up - but as a member of the Club, I don't know how you maintain your pretence. See you in December!
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cynicalint
What a silly question. Do try and act your age there's a good chap.
Of course it doesn't, and thereby lies the problem I guess. A WO can do his 22 years or whatever and NOT be allowed in, but after a five minute 'how to hold your knife and fork' lesson at cranwell, he can! What changes to that person? What is different about him?
The fact that today you can get commissioned on a fast-track basis IMHO negates all the nonesence about who can or more importantly who cannot be allowed to use the club.
It is NOT the RAF club, despite what the name says. It is the RAF Officers only club, and maybe thats why its not as good or as well supported as it used to be.
I am embarrassed to say that I know a great many officers who are not fit to be automatic members of the club and an even greater number of ORs who are.
cuefaye, I haven't been away. I just don't have the time these days reading drivvle from the likes of yourself Sir.
What a silly question. Do try and act your age there's a good chap.
Of course it doesn't, and thereby lies the problem I guess. A WO can do his 22 years or whatever and NOT be allowed in, but after a five minute 'how to hold your knife and fork' lesson at cranwell, he can! What changes to that person? What is different about him?
The fact that today you can get commissioned on a fast-track basis IMHO negates all the nonesence about who can or more importantly who cannot be allowed to use the club.
It is NOT the RAF club, despite what the name says. It is the RAF Officers only club, and maybe thats why its not as good or as well supported as it used to be.
I am embarrassed to say that I know a great many officers who are not fit to be automatic members of the club and an even greater number of ORs who are.
cuefaye, I haven't been away. I just don't have the time these days reading drivvle from the likes of yourself Sir.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
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Hi, Winco. There is no such thing as automatic membership of the club.
Anyone who is eligible is entitled to submit an application form which must be signed by a proposer and a seconder who must both be full members.
Even this is no guarantee; it is not unknown for a candidate to be turned down (rare but not unknown).
The arrangements are slightly different for IOT students who, initially are not required to pay an annual membership subscription..
Also eligible candidates, who are unable to find a proposer and seconder, may be invited to an interview to decide whether they should be offered membership, or not.
Rgds SOS
Anyone who is eligible is entitled to submit an application form which must be signed by a proposer and a seconder who must both be full members.
Even this is no guarantee; it is not unknown for a candidate to be turned down (rare but not unknown).
The arrangements are slightly different for IOT students who, initially are not required to pay an annual membership subscription..
Also eligible candidates, who are unable to find a proposer and seconder, may be invited to an interview to decide whether they should be offered membership, or not.
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 27th Aug 2013 at 09:29.
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To stop TomJoad from continually making an idiot of himself by getting personal with another poster and missing the point I will attempt to get a question answered on here.
How many active serving members does the 'RAF' club currently have ?
How many retired RAF service members does the 'RAF' club currently have?
How many affiliate/non 'RAF' members does the 'RAF' club currently have ?
Can any of these questions be answered or is it taboo because it is 'commercially' sensitive or just private ? Do members get this information at say an AGM etc ?
Or is the 'RAF'
club terrified of publishing these numbers ?
How many active serving members does the 'RAF' club currently have ?
How many retired RAF service members does the 'RAF' club currently have?
How many affiliate/non 'RAF' members does the 'RAF' club currently have ?
Can any of these questions be answered or is it taboo because it is 'commercially' sensitive or just private ? Do members get this information at say an AGM etc ?
Or is the 'RAF'
club terrified of publishing these numbers ?
If you really feel the need to know these numbers, why not contact the Royal Air Force Club yourself?
Contact details may found on the Club website under 'Contact us'.
Contact details may found on the Club website under 'Contact us'.
As I said much earlier in this thread I personally have no issue with the membership criteria for the club. I was never, and will never be, eligible to join. I believe that the club should be run in whichever such way that the members see fit.
Having said that I cannot help thinking that if the club has to expand it's reach so to speak, why not consider accepting Warrant Officers as members?
Warrant Officers are well versed in military social protocol and tradition and also have very high standards of appearance and bearing. Surely they are a perfect "fit" for the club?
Having said that I cannot help thinking that if the club has to expand it's reach so to speak, why not consider accepting Warrant Officers as members?
Warrant Officers are well versed in military social protocol and tradition and also have very high standards of appearance and bearing. Surely they are a perfect "fit" for the club?
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It is NOT the RAF club, despite what the name says. It is the RAF Officers only club, and maybe thats why its not as good or as well supported as it used to be.
Getting past the name, they need to decide what they want to become, a Premier London Wedding / Conference venue with a bit tacked on the side for those Officers remaining, which as the RAF shrinks will become fewer and fewer.
This of course will then result in the facilities having to take on more and more outside catering etc to generate funding to maintain the place, which in doing so will reduce the facilities available for the RAF members use.
Or the other option is to widen the membership remit and accept other members of the RAF in, thus insuring its continuation as an RAF club and not a Wedding Venue which a few dwindling RAF members can still attend.
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 27th Aug 2013 at 12:05.
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SOSL
You are quite correct of course in your statement about automatic membership, however, you and I both know that it is almost taken as read that any serving or retired officer will be allowed membership, and to be refused is virtually unheard of.
As NutLoose puts it (far better than I did) if the club (notice I didn't say RAF club!) wishes to remain 'RAF Orientated', then it must change with the times, otherwise it will go in the same decline as the UJ club did a few years ago. In that case, vast numbers of rooms were set aside for Eurostar train workers, resulting in even fewer rooms for servicemen and women, retired or otherwise.
As I have said, it matters not to me, but it would be sad to see the club dwindle into little less than a meeting place for a very select few who will end up fighting their corner against the influx of wedding ceromonies, union conferences and other 'less appropriate' events.
You are quite correct of course in your statement about automatic membership, however, you and I both know that it is almost taken as read that any serving or retired officer will be allowed membership, and to be refused is virtually unheard of.
As NutLoose puts it (far better than I did) if the club (notice I didn't say RAF club!) wishes to remain 'RAF Orientated', then it must change with the times, otherwise it will go in the same decline as the UJ club did a few years ago. In that case, vast numbers of rooms were set aside for Eurostar train workers, resulting in even fewer rooms for servicemen and women, retired or otherwise.
As I have said, it matters not to me, but it would be sad to see the club dwindle into little less than a meeting place for a very select few who will end up fighting their corner against the influx of wedding ceromonies, union conferences and other 'less appropriate' events.
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Come now Nutloose... There's far too much logic and good sense in that post. This is purely an emotional affair not a business issue. Please have a strong word with yourself. 
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Oh the irony. Be careful now, apparently we should not be using a public forum for a discussion on a private club. Don't know why but there you go some folk get upset by that.
Would appear then that sticking point for some is the name. It's clear that whatever the reason is some find the membership issue an emotive subject. Some others find it so outrageous that even though they have no interest in the Club can't help but coming back for further comment.
It has been entertaining for sure, even got to learn about frogs and toads. The best of Pprune.
Would appear then that sticking point for some is the name. It's clear that whatever the reason is some find the membership issue an emotive subject. Some others find it so outrageous that even though they have no interest in the Club can't help but coming back for further comment.
It has been entertaining for sure, even got to learn about frogs and toads. The best of Pprune.
Last edited by TomJoad; 27th Aug 2013 at 12:33.
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Hi again, Winco. Thanks for your speedy response.
you said
Not true. I said "rare. but not unheard of" which is not the same at all.
The RAF Club has changed with the times, in a big way, so that seems to be OK and the club is reaping the benefit.
I hadn't heard that the Union Jack Club had gone into decline, what a shame! I haven't stayed there in a long time now, but I enjoyed it when I did.
Also you said
Well I don't suppose it would be too sad for you, would it?
When it comes to the "influx" of wedding ceremonies .... and other 'less appropriate events'. maybe a word or two of explanation might help here.
As a number of posters on this thread have taken some pleasure in pointing out the number of eligible candidates for membership is declining.
Therefore the RAF Club, quite sensibly, is seeking other sources of revenue. One of which, among many, was to set up a trading company.
In 2003 (if my memory serves) the RAF Club set up a separate, non-charitable commercial trading company: The RAF Club Trading Company, managed by it's own board of directors.
The RAFCTC was empowered to use the premises at 128 Piccadilly (The RAF Club clubhouse) for the purpose of generating income for the RAF Club by providing a venue for functions, meetings and gatherings of all sorts with the options of catering, multimedia and other facilities.
Nonetheless, by far the majority of functions in the club building are still sponsored by members, for instance, my Mum, who is an associate member (e.g. widow of ....) sponsored my 50th birthday party in the club.
However, the trading company takes valuable commercial bookings for functions in what is after all a prime, central London venue. These functions are very carefully managed and by and large do not affect the members enjoyment of their club.
It's understandable that outsiders would mistake the clientele of the RAFCTC for members of the RAF Club, when attending commercial functions in the clubhouse, but that is simply not the case, they are not members but they are a source of revenue.
Rgds SOS
you said
to be refused is virtually unheard of.
The RAF Club has changed with the times, in a big way, so that seems to be OK and the club is reaping the benefit.
I hadn't heard that the Union Jack Club had gone into decline, what a shame! I haven't stayed there in a long time now, but I enjoyed it when I did.
Also you said
it would be sad to see the club dwindle into little less than a meeting place for a very select few who will end up fighting their corner against the influx of wedding ceromonies, union conferences and other 'less appropriate' events
When it comes to the "influx" of wedding ceremonies .... and other 'less appropriate events'. maybe a word or two of explanation might help here.
As a number of posters on this thread have taken some pleasure in pointing out the number of eligible candidates for membership is declining.
Therefore the RAF Club, quite sensibly, is seeking other sources of revenue. One of which, among many, was to set up a trading company.
In 2003 (if my memory serves) the RAF Club set up a separate, non-charitable commercial trading company: The RAF Club Trading Company, managed by it's own board of directors.
The RAFCTC was empowered to use the premises at 128 Piccadilly (The RAF Club clubhouse) for the purpose of generating income for the RAF Club by providing a venue for functions, meetings and gatherings of all sorts with the options of catering, multimedia and other facilities.
Nonetheless, by far the majority of functions in the club building are still sponsored by members, for instance, my Mum, who is an associate member (e.g. widow of ....) sponsored my 50th birthday party in the club.
However, the trading company takes valuable commercial bookings for functions in what is after all a prime, central London venue. These functions are very carefully managed and by and large do not affect the members enjoyment of their club.
It's understandable that outsiders would mistake the clientele of the RAFCTC for members of the RAF Club, when attending commercial functions in the clubhouse, but that is simply not the case, they are not members but they are a source of revenue.
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 27th Aug 2013 at 13:09.
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Hi TomJoad.
The RAF Clubhouse, at 128 Piccadilly, is owned by the RAF Club Company, which was set up in 1918 by the then Lord Cowdray. The company is directed by a small board of directors whose prime objective, I believe, is the continued well being of the club.
The Royal Air Force Club is a charity owned by its members and governed by a board of trustees according to its charitable objectives, these are in the public domain and can be found on the Charity Commission web site..
The "business model" is that it is a members club, largely financed by subscription but it has a number of revenue centres - accommodation - beverages - functions and a non-charitable trading company. As far as I know the food served in the various outlets within the club is subsidised from the revenue centres.
Hope that helps.
Rgds SOS
The RAF Clubhouse, at 128 Piccadilly, is owned by the RAF Club Company, which was set up in 1918 by the then Lord Cowdray. The company is directed by a small board of directors whose prime objective, I believe, is the continued well being of the club.
The Royal Air Force Club is a charity owned by its members and governed by a board of trustees according to its charitable objectives, these are in the public domain and can be found on the Charity Commission web site..
The "business model" is that it is a members club, largely financed by subscription but it has a number of revenue centres - accommodation - beverages - functions and a non-charitable trading company. As far as I know the food served in the various outlets within the club is subsidised from the revenue centres.
Hope that helps.
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 27th Aug 2013 at 13:32.
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....Oh my, I cannot believe that this (second) thread has run for 10 pages!!
I know I stated my reasons for leaving the club in the first thread - It was my personal view that perhaps the club should look inwards to the SNCO/WO Cadre rather than outwards to those with a tenuous association. I was staggered that my comment then launched a whole set of thread creep of OQs vs SNCO standards, I am even more staggered that this thread has run and run and run.
If you are a member and disagree with the membeship criteria, then do something. If you are not a member, by all means have an opinion but accept you get 'no vote'.
Something along the lines of "those with nothing to worry about, worry about nothing" springs to mind!
I know I stated my reasons for leaving the club in the first thread - It was my personal view that perhaps the club should look inwards to the SNCO/WO Cadre rather than outwards to those with a tenuous association. I was staggered that my comment then launched a whole set of thread creep of OQs vs SNCO standards, I am even more staggered that this thread has run and run and run.
If you are a member and disagree with the membeship criteria, then do something. If you are not a member, by all means have an opinion but accept you get 'no vote'.
Something along the lines of "those with nothing to worry about, worry about nothing" springs to mind!
Last edited by Once A Brat; 27th Aug 2013 at 13:15. Reason: Opinion vs Option - Doh!