GR4 Supersonic ?
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GR4 Supersonic ?
The Boss of XV Squadron made a comment this week on Tw@tter that got me thinking ...
So what are the conditions to get a GR4 to drop one in the climb ...
I'm assuming it wasn't a problem for the old F3 Tonka
Best ...
Coff.
Leon ... Expert comment ?
Highlight of today? Supersonic flight in the climb - doesn't happen often in a Tornado! No banter required from my Typhoon pilot followers!!
I'm assuming it wasn't a problem for the old F3 Tonka
Best ...
Coff.
Leon ... Expert comment ?
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 24th Aug 2013 at 10:45.
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When 20's Hunter 9s popped over to Seletar for major servicing, they were stripped. No tanks, no pylons, and even the Sabrinas were removed. There was then a roster for who got to play with it during the delivery flight - which seemed to last about 20 minutes IIRC.
Not sure whether supersonic was involved, but I would guess it might
Not sure whether supersonic was involved, but I would guess it might
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I was working on the very sqn where it happened. It had a clean ish fit.... No inboard wing pylons (and therefore no underwing tanks), no shoulder pylons, no centreline pylon, no refuel probe. I'm guessing only the outboard wing pylons are left on to reduce fatigue from wing flex?
It was an unusual experience not banging my head on a pylon as I crawled underneath the aircraft.
It was an unusual experience not banging my head on a pylon as I crawled underneath the aircraft.
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Had a clean Jag depart Gut no drops or pylons after we had done an engine change, put the ladder and chocks in the Landy, drove in and called Bruggen to tell them he was enroute to be told at the other end he was taxying in. Wondered why we could hear the reheat for ages and a big smile on the pilots face, first time probably he had been in a "fast jet"
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Last edited by NutLoose; 24th Aug 2013 at 15:40.
'corse it can. It's just that the operational fit requires all sorts of dangly bits with all their drag. Take them off and it's just a draggy F3. F3 could do it easily (even with some of it's draggy bits and the GR certainly can. Is it realistic? Well, yes. If you've done your mission and you need to escape (and you have the fuel) it's completely practical to clear the wings and run. The engines aren't that different and the airframe on the GR is only slightly draggier (what a great word!)
Supersonic was part of trip 3 (I think it was 3) at TTTE (Tri-National Tornado Training Establishment). Low level, over sea, most frames went supersonic easily but they had no pylons at all so no baggage (other than the talking baggage 
). They also had less powerful engines than the sqn jets, never mind the GR4.
Sqn GR1/4 was a different thing though, >1.5kkg of pylons alone, never mind the drag from whatever hung on them. Still, with the single-crystal turbine blades and a bit decent trimming, I managed 590kts in dry power in one once, tanks, pods & all. She would go supersonic in reheat, but then stepped sideways when the fuel tanks started protesting so no real idea of max speed in B11 fit.
). They also had less powerful engines than the sqn jets, never mind the GR4.Sqn GR1/4 was a different thing though, >1.5kkg of pylons alone, never mind the drag from whatever hung on them. Still, with the single-crystal turbine blades and a bit decent trimming, I managed 590kts in dry power in one once, tanks, pods & all. She would go supersonic in reheat, but then stepped sideways when the fuel tanks started protesting so no real idea of max speed in B11 fit.
I remember picking a new aircraft up from Warton and being most impressed with the performance, being used to the Batch 2 101 engined ac we had on the squadron. The climb into the Lichfield Corridor at FL180 happened rather quickly and I forgot to select Mach in the HUD. As the speed picked up through 420 kts, I selected Mach to see it clicking over from .98 to .99. Oops. I remember my TTTE supersonic run at 500 ft over the North Sea which seemed to hit a brick wall at well under 700kts which was really disappointing but it did make a really good noise in the cockpit.
Some earlier pre-mod GR1s had a 560ish kt limitation on the SPS Bay doors as I discovered to my cost one night trying to make our TOT at Tain and the £40 000 left hand panel probably still lies on a Highland hillside gathering moss. I told the Boss that I might not have secured the panel properly on the aircrew turnround in Machrihanish, believing that to be better than telling him the truth. Christmas Dinner for me that year was taken in the Airmen's Mess, not that SDO was ever to be used as a punishment. The 27 Sqn display pilot also discovered the problem a few years later during a practice over Marham but I think he lost both panels.
My recollection from Goose Bay was that the GR1 would start going sideways at around 640 kts with the tanks, outboards and CBLS on (if that is B11 fit) so the 600 kt VNE seemed appropriate.
Happy Days.
Well... apart from 25 Dec 85!
Some earlier pre-mod GR1s had a 560ish kt limitation on the SPS Bay doors as I discovered to my cost one night trying to make our TOT at Tain and the £40 000 left hand panel probably still lies on a Highland hillside gathering moss. I told the Boss that I might not have secured the panel properly on the aircrew turnround in Machrihanish, believing that to be better than telling him the truth. Christmas Dinner for me that year was taken in the Airmen's Mess, not that SDO was ever to be used as a punishment. The 27 Sqn display pilot also discovered the problem a few years later during a practice over Marham but I think he lost both panels.
My recollection from Goose Bay was that the GR1 would start going sideways at around 640 kts with the tanks, outboards and CBLS on (if that is B11 fit) so the 600 kt VNE seemed appropriate.
Happy Days.
Well... apart from 25 Dec 85!
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Early in the MRCA program, there was a 'supersonic' underwing tank with a smaller capacity than the one that entered service. Can't remember the details now, but it was flown on some of the development aircraft.
Originally Posted by XV277
Early in the MRCA program, there was a 'supersonic' underwing tank with a smaller capacity than the one that entered service. Can't remember the details now, but it was flown on some of the development aircraft.
Perhaps that smaller one you mention never made it to sqn service.
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GR4 release to service
So back to the point - the F3 was cleared to Mach 2 plus because the ramps worked - I was under the impression the GR4 no longer had movable ramps and was therefore subsonic ? - just curious
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I've taken the GR-4 supersonic, 
also took F-111 supersonic (twice) - that is M2...both were lots of fun, but F-111 supersonic lasted longer...
Never released a weapon at supersonic speed in the GR-4 though. .
..F-111 did on more than one occasion!
also took F-111 supersonic (twice) - that is M2...both were lots of fun, but F-111 supersonic lasted longer...Never released a weapon at supersonic speed in the GR-4 though. .
..F-111 did on more than one occasion!
What's the normal operating height for a GR4 then? ... I normally see them pootling around at FL240 to about FL280. Earlier this week one was at FL380 over Anglia, and I don't recollect seeing one that high before.
Sorry Coff, missed my call! (Been busy)
As others have said, a clean GR4 is supersonic capable. The big tanks are 600kts/M1.2 capable (and more if you ignore the RTS!!) and the little ones are subsonic only (again, I know they will go supersonic!). The problem with the GRs is that they start to hit a brick wall around 1.2M without the ramps being enabled - they are fitted for but not with (that said, from the F3 'reduce to produce' there would be plenty of spares).
The good old Tonka will make it up above 40k but doesn't like it when you turn as the wing loading is too high and the RB199 was optimised for low level.
LJ
As others have said, a clean GR4 is supersonic capable. The big tanks are 600kts/M1.2 capable (and more if you ignore the RTS!!) and the little ones are subsonic only (again, I know they will go supersonic!). The problem with the GRs is that they start to hit a brick wall around 1.2M without the ramps being enabled - they are fitted for but not with (that said, from the F3 'reduce to produce' there would be plenty of spares).
The good old Tonka will make it up above 40k but doesn't like it when you turn as the wing loading is too high and the RB199 was optimised for low level.
LJ