Last Squadron Leader OC of an RAF squadron?
"XIII and 39 may have had a Sqn Ldr too, late 60s"
Both had WgCdr from 1968 to when I left in 1971.
60 Sqdn had a SqdnLdr Navigator as OC from 1973 to 1976, in fact an over abundance of SqdnLdr's I seem to remember!
Both had WgCdr from 1968 to when I left in 1971.
60 Sqdn had a SqdnLdr Navigator as OC from 1973 to 1976, in fact an over abundance of SqdnLdr's I seem to remember!
XO
The XO post on a FJ sqn does just that, they are NOT flight commanders. It's been like that since 2002 that I know of, likely even longer.
The XO post on a FJ sqn does just that, they are NOT flight commanders.
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228 OCU Coningsby (Shadow 64 Sqn?) was commanded by a Sqn Ldr in 1975 and was actually larger in terms of crews and airframes than the Main F4 Sqns on the base.
Last edited by A2QFI; 27th Aug 2013 at 16:24.
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ISTR that 39 Sqn, based at Wyton in the 90s had a Sqn Ldr Boss...
The airforce could save its self some money if Group Captains commanded a Group, a Wing Commander a Wing, a Squadron Leader a Squadron and a Flight Lieutenant a Flight as the name suggests leaving the Flying Officers to do the flying and other duties. It might sort out the top heavy air force we currently have and reduce the rediculous Air Force List we currently have.
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Philistine!! 
Stone him
How do you envisage scoping with the semi-instant flt lt with a random degree? Are you suggesting starting at plt off? Oh, didn't we do that once?
What went wrong? Oh, WW2, probably ... With (no disrespect) 25 yo wg cdrs. Great people for their time, of course.
Being serious ... Now you have to start with the titular CAS, and create a pyramid from the top down to ensure there's a flow of people to that appointment. That actually requires appointments in the ranks you object to ... There's no time to climb the ladder unless you do that. Especially with Graduate entry, who are already "old".
Stone him
How do you envisage scoping with the semi-instant flt lt with a random degree? Are you suggesting starting at plt off? Oh, didn't we do that once?
What went wrong? Oh, WW2, probably ... With (no disrespect) 25 yo wg cdrs. Great people for their time, of course.
Being serious ... Now you have to start with the titular CAS, and create a pyramid from the top down to ensure there's a flow of people to that appointment. That actually requires appointments in the ranks you object to ... There's no time to climb the ladder unless you do that. Especially with Graduate entry, who are already "old".
Surely that's how it should be, appropiate appointments from a single guy at the top down, in the right numbers with the correct experience, only promoted when they are worthy of it rather than the current system we have of jumping through hoops for promotion.
The clue is in the title of each appointment, if you are able to lead a Squadron, you are a Squadron Leader. If not, you are not promoted. Nothing to do with age or qualifications.
The clue is in the title of each appointment, if you are able to lead a Squadron, you are a Squadron Leader. If not, you are not promoted. Nothing to do with age or qualifications.
Easy Street,
I stand corrected. I just have recollections of Boss, XO, OCA, OCB and OCTrg. Must've spent too much time in the Belfry.
I stand corrected. I just have recollections of Boss, XO, OCA, OCB and OCTrg. Must've spent too much time in the Belfry.
Gentleman Aviator
Surely that's how it should be, appropiate appointments from a single guy at the top down
Facts:
1. I joined an RAF of about 150 000 personnel - with a 4-Star CAS. I now serve with a 35 000-ish RAF - with a 4-Star CAS.
2. 35 000 in uniform about equates to the Met Police - who have 11 ranks in total from Constable to Comissioner (and that's 2 more than most forces).
3. From AC to ACM, the RAF has about 19 or 20 ranks.
Discuss.
I've just been leafing through Martin Bowman's book "Lightning Strikes Twice" he states that the C.O. of 23 Squadron at Leuchars as of 15th September 1972 was a Squadron Leader. But I don't believe any fully constituted Operational Squadrons were co'd by any other than the rank of Wing Commander by then. The rank gradually replaced Squadron Leader during the war as it was deamed worthy for commanding the new four-engined Bombers i.e. Lancaster, Halifax, Stirling and what have you! Hence Wing Commander Guy Gibson. All the B.O.B. Fighter Squadrons were led by Squadron Leaders.
FB the 1st
FB the 1st
Ah, but what rank should he be? How small do we have to become, not to have a 4-Star CAS?
Facts:
1. I joined an RAF of about 150 000 personnel - with a 4-Star CAS. I now serve with a 35 000-ish RAF - with a 4-Star CAS.
2. 35 000 in uniform about equates to the Met Police - who have 11 ranks in total from Constable to Comissioner (and that's 2 more than most forces).
3. From AC to ACM, the RAF has about 19 or 20 ranks.
Discuss.
Facts:
1. I joined an RAF of about 150 000 personnel - with a 4-Star CAS. I now serve with a 35 000-ish RAF - with a 4-Star CAS.
2. 35 000 in uniform about equates to the Met Police - who have 11 ranks in total from Constable to Comissioner (and that's 2 more than most forces).
3. From AC to ACM, the RAF has about 19 or 20 ranks.
Discuss.
You must have joined in the 1960s, but you say you are still in?
FB I
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228 OCU Coningsby (Shadow 64 Sqn?) was commanded by a Sqn Ldr in 1975 and was actually larger in terms of crews and airframes than the Main F4 Sqns on the base.
You may be thinking of the Lightning Training Flight which had a Sqdn Ldr OC from 75 to when it shut in '87. Not the same Sqdn Ldr obviously...
The last one was Clive Rowley who was OC when Baz Lennon banged out over the airfield during a display workup; leading to the famous call 'I've broken that one sir, can I have another.'
Gentleman Aviator
FB
good spot! Joined (very young!) in 1968.
Note my choice of words:
... currently RAFR (CC) working full time with Air Cadet Organisation - still going to work on an RAF Station every day in uniform! (and there goes my incognito to a few more mates.....)
good spot! Joined (very young!) in 1968.
Note my choice of words:
I now serve with
My point is the total number of commisioned ranks we have, far too many for the size of the current air force, a quick look at the Air Force List reveals the ridiculous number of Sqn Ldr and Wg Cmd appointments we have.
I'm not against Air ranks, they have their place but we desperately need to addess the numbers of commisioned officers.
The SDSR was supposed to address this but I doubt very little has or will ever change.
I'm not against Air ranks, they have their place but we desperately need to addess the numbers of commisioned officers.
The SDSR was supposed to address this but I doubt very little has or will ever change.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
My point is the total number of commisioned ranks we have, far too many for the size of the current air force, a quick look at the Air Force List reveals the ridiculous number of Sqn Ldr and Wg Cmd appointments we have.
I'm not against Air ranks, they have their place but we desperately need to addess the numbers of commisioned officers.
I'm not against Air ranks, they have their place but we desperately need to addess the numbers of commisioned officers.
Modern rank inflation may well have started with the V-Force. An all commissioned crew demanded at least a flt lt captain in charge of the BOMB. A 23-yr old flt lt captain was one of the stars in the recruitment of the time.
Now Easy Street says an XO has 6 or 8 aircrew under him. In the 60s a V-force flight commander had 53. This increase may be directly attributed to the Hodgekinson which recommended up to 300 overborne sqn ldrs in the GD branch. This saw V bomber sqns go from one sqn ldr for 11 crews/53 aircrew to 5 sqn ldrs for 10 crews/44 aircrew - the same as your present FJ figure.
At that time you had CAS, a coterie of VSO on the Air Force Board, and AOCinC for Bomber, Fighter, Coastal, Transport, Flying Training, Tech Training, Maintenance, Signals Commands, plus 2TAF, NEAF, MEAF, and FEAF. You then had 1Gp, 3Gp, 11Gp, 12Gp, 18Gp, 19Gp, 23Gp, 25Gp, 224Gp and probably others I have missed. They all had SASOs etc, so plenty of career opportunities for command progression.
But to revert to ranks matching posts you would have to realign pay as well.
PO=P3 in a civil airline. FO=FO/P2. Flt Lt=Captain. Sqn Ldr=Flight Checker. Wg Cdr=a division?. Gp Capt=Head of area operations.
AOC is now your 1* in charge of operations and CinC becomes the CEO.
Could their pay be afforded?
On ranks though, what of the RNZAF? Their highest organisation is a Group. Their CAS is a 2* but they only have 3200 personnel and 640 officers.
The RAAF head is a 3* and has 14300 personnel.
Proportionally the RAF is larger.
The other question is why so many senior officers at any given rank. The answer there is our politicians desire for seats at the top table so the military has to increase its star count to match that of her allies.
The forces can't operate in a vacuum the structure is moderated by external influences, so we see personnel on international duties upranked to give them credibility with her allies.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 28th Aug 2013 at 20:46.