Retention
Originally Posted by High_Expect
The huge number of tax free jobs opening up in 2014 for, albeit, a select few aircrew with QFI ticks means that any £150k - £300k FRI would barely touch the sides. The guys a gals will be making that sort of cash every 18-36 months.
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retention
HE
2014 is just around the corner now but there are jobs out there/here now. And you are not wrong about the figures. (Well, maybe underselling it a little)
2014 is just around the corner now but there are jobs out there/here now. And you are not wrong about the figures. (Well, maybe underselling it a little)
Last edited by rathebelucky; 26th Oct 2013 at 18:40.
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Considering the original premise of the thread was pilots with 6-7 years service, which by my reckoning, means mid to late twenties, there's much talk about pensions. Do I detect a thread hijack by the next generation?
I'm saddened if it really is true that pilots are clamouring to leave at that point. It's certainly an expensive way to run a business. No airline could ever afford to train someone for such a payback period, and I'm constantly told how short-term their outlook is.
I'm saddened if it really is true that pilots are clamouring to leave at that point. It's certainly an expensive way to run a business. No airline could ever afford to train someone for such a payback period, and I'm constantly told how short-term their outlook is.
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I'm saddened if it really is true that pilots are clamouring to leave at that point.
With the mixture of (accidentally coordinated) factors - pensions, civil accreditation, redundancies, pay freezes, Op tempo - the MoD have created a monster that is yet to really bite.
Very sad indeed.
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Training routes, European & N. American dets, rates - not having to spend 3 days finding receipts for choccy bars and packets of crisps, promoting leaders not managers, triv taking a backseat to flying, questions 'on high' when front line aircrew aren't averaging >25 hours a month (when in the UK, not some shi**y) eastern wasteland, where front-line first means focussing on flying and getting aircraft serviceable - not having to shi* in a bucket, where bosses come and talk to you - not send an email, when ops sqn doesn't refer to the flying squadrons as 'customers', the resources to train for excellence not competence (or mediocrity).
Some of the above may cost money, but there'll be a better, and happier, product (
) at the end of it.
Some of the above may cost money, but there'll be a better, and happier, product (
) at the end of it.
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 27th Oct 2013 at 22:13.
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Most of that wouldn't cost much money to fix, Willard...by contrast with Ginster's wish list! Bumping up pay and especially pension is a huge and escalating cost which def secs in 50 yrs will have to find. And will it really make your ATPL studying co stay if he wants shiny gold bars?
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On the other hand, our people are expensive to train and it's necessary also to consider the financial value of, and necessity for, experience. A lot of companies found themselves "saving money" by cutting back on how well they looked after their staff, only to find that they were spending a small fortune in recruitment and training. They ended up with a transient workforce and no one with any depth of experience.
PWC make millions every year analysing companies' staff turnover and convincing them to retain - even if it seems expensive - rather than keep losing and replacing their people.
A smaller, happier, valued staff is more efficient and comes with a smaller recruitment and trining bill than one with poor retention. False economies are not good savings plans.
PWC make millions every year analysing companies' staff turnover and convincing them to retain - even if it seems expensive - rather than keep losing and replacing their people.
A smaller, happier, valued staff is more efficient and comes with a smaller recruitment and trining bill than one with poor retention. False economies are not good savings plans.
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ShotOne,
Not a wish list...most of those are pretty much lost causes due to the pressures behind them
Combine those with Willard's list and it's a pretty formidable prospect - just an acknowledgement and attempt to fix something/anything would help.
Not a wish list...most of those are pretty much lost causes due to the pressures behind them
Combine those with Willard's list and it's a pretty formidable prospect - just an acknowledgement and attempt to fix something/anything would help.
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Uncle G,
I honestly don't expect any acknowledgement from those responsible, as to do so would likely admit irresponsibility in respect of the whole redundancy, training pipeline closure (such as WSO) situations we've seen in the recent past. I do hope that the RAF (and FAA/AAC) have a plan for when AFPS 75/05 becomes AFPS 15 in Apr 15 and a large proportion either perceive or know that it would be better to leave.
If I was recruiting for a major airline or aviation company, that date would be seared into my mind....
I honestly don't expect any acknowledgement from those responsible, as to do so would likely admit irresponsibility in respect of the whole redundancy, training pipeline closure (such as WSO) situations we've seen in the recent past. I do hope that the RAF (and FAA/AAC) have a plan for when AFPS 75/05 becomes AFPS 15 in Apr 15 and a large proportion either perceive or know that it would be better to leave.
If I was recruiting for a major airline or aviation company, that date would be seared into my mind....
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I don't think FRI is the only issue. My Sons in Law and a daughter are all about to pull the handle too. The kicker for them is the pension.
Retention
PN,
I agree that the constant replacement of our values & ethos with civilian trivia and David Brent-esque management doesn't half chip away at morale, and that for many the new pension is the last straw. But I have to ask if people are leaving because if the pension, is it not a case of frying pan to fire? Would a civvie pension scheme be any better?
It might just be me being lucky - I certainly don't enjoy the mountain of trivia and admin that makes up most of my working day, but the pension still seems to be reasonable all things considered. But as I say, I might be lucky. My 16/38 point is before the transition and will be on mid-level sqn ldr pay as my 'starting' salary for the new scheme. I think I'm one of the few who might if not benefit, might not actually be any worse off. Whilst there are plenty of push factors, the pull factors aren't yet quite strong enough to make me pull the Y&B
I agree that the constant replacement of our values & ethos with civilian trivia and David Brent-esque management doesn't half chip away at morale, and that for many the new pension is the last straw. But I have to ask if people are leaving because if the pension, is it not a case of frying pan to fire? Would a civvie pension scheme be any better?
It might just be me being lucky - I certainly don't enjoy the mountain of trivia and admin that makes up most of my working day, but the pension still seems to be reasonable all things considered. But as I say, I might be lucky. My 16/38 point is before the transition and will be on mid-level sqn ldr pay as my 'starting' salary for the new scheme. I think I'm one of the few who might if not benefit, might not actually be any worse off. Whilst there are plenty of push factors, the pull factors aren't yet quite strong enough to make me pull the Y&B
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To stay or not to stay....
It is ultimately a very personal decision...for what it is worth I left some years ago as a 2 and a half with a certain staff college date. After I turned that down, when some clowns parked aircraft in the WTC it looked like a daft move.
As things turned out, by good fortune I am now paid better than a 3-star and still fly aeroplanes....and some very nice ones at that. It is not the same as the RAF, and I would never pretend it was, but it has been a lot of fun along the way....and that is why I wanted to fly. I still have VR contact with the RAF...and I can honestly say that I know of no other organisation that has so lost its way....
As things turned out, by good fortune I am now paid better than a 3-star and still fly aeroplanes....and some very nice ones at that. It is not the same as the RAF, and I would never pretend it was, but it has been a lot of fun along the way....and that is why I wanted to fly. I still have VR contact with the RAF...and I can honestly say that I know of no other organisation that has so lost its way....
Last edited by Table For 1; 28th Oct 2013 at 21:20.
That kind of leadership isn't going to help retention I fear.
I would have hoped that sort of toxic behaviour - it doesn't warrant the word leadership - went out with the Ark. If it's true, the fact that it is doing the rounds won't reinforce his position, it will simply undermine it when everyone refuses to work with him.
There is a strong substanciated rumour of a Sqn Ldr at a double digit ISTAR Sqn taking his troops aside and telling them, and I quote '....if you cross me I will destroy you'. A room full of Officers and SNCOs and he says that to them!!
As "experienced" (=older) personnel, we tend to emphasise 'retention' in our analysis of manning issues, because 'retention' measures tend to be aimed at our ilk! What we tend to forget is the old adage that military service is a young man's game. Yes, you need a core of grizzled SNCOs and WOs to keep the raw recruits in line, and yes you need a few (very few) officers of Wg Cdr rank and above to direct the show. However I think that the RAF has quite an 'aged' feel about it compared to the other services; of course we of "experience" (age) justify this by pointing out that we are a technical service where engineering and flying expertise needs to be developed over time. But "experience" (age) comes with wife/husband, children, expectations of stability... and this in an age where spouses are less and less willing to troop dutifully from patch to patch every 2-3 years. So "experienced" personnel have become increasingly difficult to please, and expect a civilian lifestyle - which we encourage with advances of pay for deposits on property, yet which is at odds with the ultimate truth that you go where the Service needs you to go. Just look at recent issues - Tornado drawdown at Lossiemouth = mass stampede to the offshore industry rather than move south. Typhoon drawdown at Leuchars? I hear rumours of threats of mass PVR. Higher authority than the MoD decides where we need to work, and military people need to be prepared to move to where the work is.
NEM is all well and good - stability in the UK, tick - but there will always be a requirement to spend time away. And this will always get cranked up to the maximum that the seniors think they can get away with. 3-month exercises in the Middle East, anyone? Just look at the number of people going there on a regular basis at the moment that are nothing to do with HERRICK but are doing "engagement". This will continue long after 2015 because if we sit in barracks doing our day job, we will get culled. While this is wrong, it is a sad fact of life. And this means that we will need a supply of young and carefree chaps/chapesses happy to spend about 33-50% of their time away (including exercises) year in, year out, even when there is nothing much going on out there.
And so I think that in a deep dark corridor in Manning, beyond the smokescreen of NEM, is a developing policy to drive people out at their mid-career point with a piffling (by current standards) immediate pension and only keep the very best for full careers - admittedly those will need to be compensated well, but it needs to stop being the "norm" to serve a full career before advances in senior pay can be considered.
Finally - experience is important in an air force that runs old kit like Tornado, C130, Puma - the old hands know where to apply an "engineering tap" to fix snags, and know which component to replace for a particular set of systems. However ,when you run kit like Voyager and F-35, the expensive and comprehensive support arrangements mean that rectification increasingly tends towards the "Haynes manual" approach. Experience will remain important - but those with 5-10 years' experience, rather than 15-20, will be in the 'sweet spot' that Manning try to protect. After that, it will be 'thankyou and goodbye'. In my opinion!
NEM is all well and good - stability in the UK, tick - but there will always be a requirement to spend time away. And this will always get cranked up to the maximum that the seniors think they can get away with. 3-month exercises in the Middle East, anyone? Just look at the number of people going there on a regular basis at the moment that are nothing to do with HERRICK but are doing "engagement". This will continue long after 2015 because if we sit in barracks doing our day job, we will get culled. While this is wrong, it is a sad fact of life. And this means that we will need a supply of young and carefree chaps/chapesses happy to spend about 33-50% of their time away (including exercises) year in, year out, even when there is nothing much going on out there.
And so I think that in a deep dark corridor in Manning, beyond the smokescreen of NEM, is a developing policy to drive people out at their mid-career point with a piffling (by current standards) immediate pension and only keep the very best for full careers - admittedly those will need to be compensated well, but it needs to stop being the "norm" to serve a full career before advances in senior pay can be considered.
Finally - experience is important in an air force that runs old kit like Tornado, C130, Puma - the old hands know where to apply an "engineering tap" to fix snags, and know which component to replace for a particular set of systems. However ,when you run kit like Voyager and F-35, the expensive and comprehensive support arrangements mean that rectification increasingly tends towards the "Haynes manual" approach. Experience will remain important - but those with 5-10 years' experience, rather than 15-20, will be in the 'sweet spot' that Manning try to protect. After that, it will be 'thankyou and goodbye'. In my opinion!
Easy,
".....Tornado drawdown at Lossiemouth = mass stampede to the offshore industry rather than move south......." - quite simply WRONG!
The main driver for the mass move to the offshore industry from Lossie has/had nothing to do with the prospect of a potential move south, indeed people from 'down south' are asking to be posted north to Lossie so they can then PVR from there and go offshore.
While your argument may have some merit at the lower skill levels, to spend £5M training someone, and then replacing them every 6 years as opposed to every 20-30, is sheer lunacy.....
Not forgetting the fact that the Defense Secretary himself has said he doesn't think the UK will have the stomach for any further expeditionary warfare for the next 10-15 years, so an increased amount of stability for individuals is expected to occur post 2015 .
Apart from that.....
".....Tornado drawdown at Lossiemouth = mass stampede to the offshore industry rather than move south......." - quite simply WRONG!
The main driver for the mass move to the offshore industry from Lossie has/had nothing to do with the prospect of a potential move south, indeed people from 'down south' are asking to be posted north to Lossie so they can then PVR from there and go offshore.
While your argument may have some merit at the lower skill levels, to spend £5M training someone, and then replacing them every 6 years as opposed to every 20-30, is sheer lunacy.....
Not forgetting the fact that the Defense Secretary himself has said he doesn't think the UK will have the stomach for any further expeditionary warfare for the next 10-15 years, so an increased amount of stability for individuals is expected to occur post 2015 .
Apart from that.....
Last edited by Biggus; 28th Oct 2013 at 21:52.
Defense Secretary himself has said he doesn't think the UK will have the stomach for any further expeditionary warfare for the next 10-15 years
Avoid imitations
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The good news is that a certain very senior politician, at a speech at a recent charity dinner, stated that all we need to do is make the military much more like civilian businesses and make everyone in the military more productive! One wonders how? Does he mean we all need to drop more bombs or shoot more people? Perhaps he means that we should all work longer hours and spend less time on our personal lives. Yet our senior leadership still wonder why people are leaving!!
I left almost two decades ago, because the RAF I knew and loved had gone down the tubes as far as I was concerned. The worst thing was the appalling man management shown by those desperate to climb the promotion ladder, rather than just getting the job done in a professional, properly organised way.
A good example: A certain helicopter station was trying to run an operational squadron and a separate OCU with as few as one aircraft per day between them. I was an OCU QHI at the time. Our Boss announced that to alleviate the issues the lack of aircraft caused to our unit's flying programme and throughput, there would be an early shift and a late shift.
After a couple of weeks we realised we were all working both shifts.
