New Japanese Carrier
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OK. Now someone's really deep into the magic mushroom stash.
Dokdo is substantially smaller than the Invincibles and has a well deck that can take two LCACs and consequently occupies a large slab of the hull. It's designed for ten SH-60-class helicopters, each of which at a rough guess takes up much less than a quarter of the deck space of an F-35B and accommodates less than a quarter as much fuel. Other than rounds for the Goalkeeper and RAM, the only other ordnance it carries would seem to be lightweight torpedoes and small ASMs like Sea Skuas.
Again, folks, the F-35B is the size of an F-4.
Dokdo is substantially smaller than the Invincibles and has a well deck that can take two LCACs and consequently occupies a large slab of the hull. It's designed for ten SH-60-class helicopters, each of which at a rough guess takes up much less than a quarter of the deck space of an F-35B and accommodates less than a quarter as much fuel. Other than rounds for the Goalkeeper and RAM, the only other ordnance it carries would seem to be lightweight torpedoes and small ASMs like Sea Skuas.
Again, folks, the F-35B is the size of an F-4.
OK. Now someone's really deep into the magic mushroom stash.
Dokdo is substantially smaller than the Invincibles and has a well deck that can take two LCACs and consequently occupies a large slab of the hull. It's designed for ten SH-60-class helicopters, each of which at a rough guess takes up much less than a quarter of the deck space of an F-35B and accommodates less than a quarter as much fuel. Other than rounds for the Goalkeeper and RAM, the only other ordnance it carries would seem to be lightweight torpedoes and small ASMs like Sea Skuas.
Again, folks, the F-35B is the size of an F-4.
Dokdo is substantially smaller than the Invincibles and has a well deck that can take two LCACs and consequently occupies a large slab of the hull. It's designed for ten SH-60-class helicopters, each of which at a rough guess takes up much less than a quarter of the deck space of an F-35B and accommodates less than a quarter as much fuel. Other than rounds for the Goalkeeper and RAM, the only other ordnance it carries would seem to be lightweight torpedoes and small ASMs like Sea Skuas.
Again, folks, the F-35B is the size of an F-4.
She's not that much smaller that the Invincibles (by about 45 feet and perhaps 10% in tonnage), and Harriers/SeaHarriers have operated from even smaller ships with Spain, USA, Thailand and Italy. Yes, I do understand the Harrier is a smaller aircraft).
The Dokdo has elevators that can fit the F-35- another coincidence like the Japanese carrie...I mean destroyer?
While she is definitely primarily an amphib, and while she would not be able to employ a large airwing for simultaneous CAP, strike etc, she could employ a handful of B's. Not as a true blue water carrier, but perhaps as the perfect middle finger "carrier" that would be prominently aimed directly at a few neighbors I can think of....
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May I be allowed a couple of observations that might help this thread along?
First, the RN's 'through deck cruisers' (the 'Invincible' class) were most definitely not designed to go upthreat and 'hack the shad'. (That task appeared in the mid 70s as the reality of the RAF's inability to provide meaningful air cover over the Fleet became apparent, plus the new threats posed by Soviet missiles that could be targeted by 'Bear' shadowers). The CVS design, aimed at providing an ASW command vessel with 8 or 9 Sea Kings embarked, was hastily (and fairly late on) modified to include lifts large enough take a Harrier. The original lifts were long and narrow in size to handle a folded helicopter., From that time on, Sea Harrier ops from the ships demanded a continuous process of 'make do and mend' to make it work. The Falklands showed what could be achieved from very basic beginnings.
Which, I think, brings us to what the F-35B might or might not be able to do from smaller ships. The F-35B was specifically and deliberately designed to be able to operate, and be supported from, a USN 'Wasp' class LHD. These have a displacement of just over 40,000 tons, decks about 840 ft long, just over 100 ft wide. But no ski jump.
The B was also required to be able to launch from an 'Invincible' class deck and ski jump. Flight deck was about 600 ft long.
Izumo has a lower displacement (27,000 tons), but a comparable deck size to the LHD (814 ft long, 125 ft across). Again, no ski jump (yet). At a guess (yes, just a guess), her lower tonnage is because she doesn't have a well deck and all the amphibious assault stuff.
Dokdo is smaller still. 18,800 tons displacement, 650 ft long, 102 ft wide.
The RAN's Canberra class are in the middle of the pack - 30,000 tons, 760 ft long, 102 ft wide. They already have a ski jump
Warning - opinions here. I'd think that very useful F-35B operations could be conducted from Izumo (with a ski jump) or Canberra. Dokdo looks extremely small, but if all they want to do is 'lily pad' a few F-35Bs up threat, then a ski jump might make it happen. Tight, but possibly achievable, with a bit of determination and old fashioned ingenuity.
A bit like Sea Harrier operations from the 'through deck cruisers'.
Oh, and I think the F-4/F-35B size comparison goes like this:
F-4: Length 58 ft, span 38 ft, weight 61,800 lb
F-35B: Length 50 ft, span 35 ft, weight 60,000 lb.
I do think that the F-35B's a little smaller than an F-4, but weighs about the same. But it doesn't need cats and traps.
Hope this helps a little,
Best regards as ever to all those looking to put aircraft on ships,
Engines
First, the RN's 'through deck cruisers' (the 'Invincible' class) were most definitely not designed to go upthreat and 'hack the shad'. (That task appeared in the mid 70s as the reality of the RAF's inability to provide meaningful air cover over the Fleet became apparent, plus the new threats posed by Soviet missiles that could be targeted by 'Bear' shadowers). The CVS design, aimed at providing an ASW command vessel with 8 or 9 Sea Kings embarked, was hastily (and fairly late on) modified to include lifts large enough take a Harrier. The original lifts were long and narrow in size to handle a folded helicopter., From that time on, Sea Harrier ops from the ships demanded a continuous process of 'make do and mend' to make it work. The Falklands showed what could be achieved from very basic beginnings.
Which, I think, brings us to what the F-35B might or might not be able to do from smaller ships. The F-35B was specifically and deliberately designed to be able to operate, and be supported from, a USN 'Wasp' class LHD. These have a displacement of just over 40,000 tons, decks about 840 ft long, just over 100 ft wide. But no ski jump.
The B was also required to be able to launch from an 'Invincible' class deck and ski jump. Flight deck was about 600 ft long.
Izumo has a lower displacement (27,000 tons), but a comparable deck size to the LHD (814 ft long, 125 ft across). Again, no ski jump (yet). At a guess (yes, just a guess), her lower tonnage is because she doesn't have a well deck and all the amphibious assault stuff.
Dokdo is smaller still. 18,800 tons displacement, 650 ft long, 102 ft wide.
The RAN's Canberra class are in the middle of the pack - 30,000 tons, 760 ft long, 102 ft wide. They already have a ski jump
Warning - opinions here. I'd think that very useful F-35B operations could be conducted from Izumo (with a ski jump) or Canberra. Dokdo looks extremely small, but if all they want to do is 'lily pad' a few F-35Bs up threat, then a ski jump might make it happen. Tight, but possibly achievable, with a bit of determination and old fashioned ingenuity.
A bit like Sea Harrier operations from the 'through deck cruisers'.
Oh, and I think the F-4/F-35B size comparison goes like this:
F-4: Length 58 ft, span 38 ft, weight 61,800 lb
F-35B: Length 50 ft, span 35 ft, weight 60,000 lb.
I do think that the F-35B's a little smaller than an F-4, but weighs about the same. But it doesn't need cats and traps.
Hope this helps a little,
Best regards as ever to all those looking to put aircraft on ships,
Engines
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You could certainly operate a few F-35Bs from Izumo although it would probably take some modifications. How many is a matter of the capacity to sustain operations - and as always, the next question is whether there are better ways to meet the need, or better ways to spend the money given 2 x B ≈ 3 x A.
I incline to the view that much of this is still in the realm of think-tank and defense-planner noodling combined with STOVL-enthusiast wishful thinking, amplified by the politically exciting idea of the JMSDF getting carriers and the predictable ROK #UsToo reaction thereto.
I incline to the view that much of this is still in the realm of think-tank and defense-planner noodling combined with STOVL-enthusiast wishful thinking, amplified by the politically exciting idea of the JMSDF getting carriers and the predictable ROK #UsToo reaction thereto.
I would be surprised if anyone in the RN was daft enough to walk over to any NATO airforce with a requirement for persistent, land-based, long-range fleet air defence. I would be astonished if the RN got as far as penning a requirement, let alone expecting the RAF to arrive.
The absolute reluctance to fully acknowledge, equip and train for realistic air threats explains the poor capability; it has nothing to do with expecting the RAF to arrive with a bag of miracles.
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There is an indepth view of the Hyuga class in Seaforth World Naval Review 2014
One thing that struck me was that they have significant capability other than just carrying helicopters - with 16 surface to surface missiles, 12 ASROC, 6 torpedo tubes and 2 Phalanx as well as a locally developed multi-function radar system that looks like a Junior Aegis.
The Izumas look generally similar to the Cavour - so a small air group of F-35's is quite possible
Also interesting that thee japanese navy has similar manning issues as the RN
One thing that struck me was that they have significant capability other than just carrying helicopters - with 16 surface to surface missiles, 12 ASROC, 6 torpedo tubes and 2 Phalanx as well as a locally developed multi-function radar system that looks like a Junior Aegis.
The Izumas look generally similar to the Cavour - so a small air group of F-35's is quite possible
Also interesting that thee japanese navy has similar manning issues as the RN
According to the Japanese media the refit of Izumo to enable F-35B will cost them around Ł375M. For that they get a new deck layout with more heat resistance, hangar modifications and a big change to magazines and aviation fuel storage; the rest is being spent on F-35 IT support system.
A quick third of a billion is quite a chunk of change.
A quick third of a billion is quite a chunk of change.
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$500m is a fair sum. Plus, realistically, if you want even 10 jets on the boat you need to buy 25 F-35Bs, which is close to $3.5 billion even at US budget weapon system cost.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
MSDF helicopter flattop Izumo designed as aircraft carrier
Despite the Defense Ministry's denial that the helicopter carrier Izumo, launched in 2015, was planned to be refitted into an aircraft carrier, former Maritime Self-Defense Force executives confirmed that that is how the blueprints were drawn up. “It is only reasonable to design (the Izumo) with the prospect of possible changes of the circumstances in the decades ahead,” a then MSDF executive told The Asahi Shimbun. “We viewed that whether the Izumo should be actually refitted could be decided by the government.”
The former executive said a consensus was reached privately among the MSDF that the Izumo should be considered for conversion into an aircraft carrier. But the MSDF couldn't explain the need publicly due to the government's view that aircraft carriers capable of launching large-scale attacks are equivalent to the military capability prohibited by the war-renouncing Article 9 of the Constitution.
Ever since the Izumo's construction, experts both in and outside Japan have pointed out the possibility of turning it into a full-fledged aircraft carrier. However, the Defense Ministry publicly denied any plan to deploy fighter jets with strike capabilities on the Izumo and contended that it was not an aircraft carrier. The ministry has since done an abrupt about-face and now is mulling the possibility of refitting the vessel into an aircraft carrier. Such a reversal has inevitably raised suspicions that the ministry had this plan in mind from the beginning.
Refitting the Izumo, the Maritime Self-Defense Force's largest vessel, into an aircraft carrier had been considered since late 2000 to bolster the nation's defenses against China’s increasing maritime advances around Japan’s southwestern islands, according to the MSDF executives.......
In 2008, Chinese naval vessels and other warships passing through the waters between the main Okinawa island and Miyakojima island, which lies to the southwest, were spotted for the first time. At that time Chinese government vessels intruding on Japan’s territorial waters became common. According to MSDF executives at that time, the MSDF saw the need to secure Japan’s competitive edge in the airspace to counter possible China’s maritime expansion in the East China Sea.
However, the runway at the Air Self-Defense Force Naha Base is the only one that allows ASDF aircraft to take off and land in and around Okinawa. Therefore “the plan to construct the Izumo was settled with its future conversion in mind to prepare for any possible contingency of the unavailability of the ASDF Naha Base,” according to one of the executives. In those days, the U.S. F-35B stealth fighters, which could take off and land vertically, were in development, leading to a design conception of the Izumo on the premise that it could be converted to handle landings and takeoffs of the F-35B and other aircraft, such as the Osprey transport aircraft.
The approximately 250-meter long Izumo’s elevator connecting the deck with the hangar was designed to accommodate the F-35B fighter, which measures about 15 meters in length and about 11 meters in width. Paint that can withstand the exhaust heat generated from F-35 fighter jets during landings and takeoffs was selected for the deck of the Izumo. It has also been expected to retrofit the Izumo with a sloping deck for takeoffs, the former MSDF executives said.
If the Izumo is converted to enable landings and takeoffs of the F-35B, the vessel can be utilized to refuel U.S. stealth fighter jets anywhere in the world at any time, including during military emergencies under the new national security legislation. Even if it is designated a “defensive” aircraft carrier or with some other terminology, the refitted Izumo would be a vessel capable of attacking enemy targets.
Despite the Defense Ministry's denial that the helicopter carrier Izumo, launched in 2015, was planned to be refitted into an aircraft carrier, former Maritime Self-Defense Force executives confirmed that that is how the blueprints were drawn up. “It is only reasonable to design (the Izumo) with the prospect of possible changes of the circumstances in the decades ahead,” a then MSDF executive told The Asahi Shimbun. “We viewed that whether the Izumo should be actually refitted could be decided by the government.”
The former executive said a consensus was reached privately among the MSDF that the Izumo should be considered for conversion into an aircraft carrier. But the MSDF couldn't explain the need publicly due to the government's view that aircraft carriers capable of launching large-scale attacks are equivalent to the military capability prohibited by the war-renouncing Article 9 of the Constitution.
Ever since the Izumo's construction, experts both in and outside Japan have pointed out the possibility of turning it into a full-fledged aircraft carrier. However, the Defense Ministry publicly denied any plan to deploy fighter jets with strike capabilities on the Izumo and contended that it was not an aircraft carrier. The ministry has since done an abrupt about-face and now is mulling the possibility of refitting the vessel into an aircraft carrier. Such a reversal has inevitably raised suspicions that the ministry had this plan in mind from the beginning.
Refitting the Izumo, the Maritime Self-Defense Force's largest vessel, into an aircraft carrier had been considered since late 2000 to bolster the nation's defenses against China’s increasing maritime advances around Japan’s southwestern islands, according to the MSDF executives.......
In 2008, Chinese naval vessels and other warships passing through the waters between the main Okinawa island and Miyakojima island, which lies to the southwest, were spotted for the first time. At that time Chinese government vessels intruding on Japan’s territorial waters became common. According to MSDF executives at that time, the MSDF saw the need to secure Japan’s competitive edge in the airspace to counter possible China’s maritime expansion in the East China Sea.
However, the runway at the Air Self-Defense Force Naha Base is the only one that allows ASDF aircraft to take off and land in and around Okinawa. Therefore “the plan to construct the Izumo was settled with its future conversion in mind to prepare for any possible contingency of the unavailability of the ASDF Naha Base,” according to one of the executives. In those days, the U.S. F-35B stealth fighters, which could take off and land vertically, were in development, leading to a design conception of the Izumo on the premise that it could be converted to handle landings and takeoffs of the F-35B and other aircraft, such as the Osprey transport aircraft.
The approximately 250-meter long Izumo’s elevator connecting the deck with the hangar was designed to accommodate the F-35B fighter, which measures about 15 meters in length and about 11 meters in width. Paint that can withstand the exhaust heat generated from F-35 fighter jets during landings and takeoffs was selected for the deck of the Izumo. It has also been expected to retrofit the Izumo with a sloping deck for takeoffs, the former MSDF executives said.
If the Izumo is converted to enable landings and takeoffs of the F-35B, the vessel can be utilized to refuel U.S. stealth fighter jets anywhere in the world at any time, including during military emergencies under the new national security legislation. Even if it is designated a “defensive” aircraft carrier or with some other terminology, the refitted Izumo would be a vessel capable of attacking enemy targets.
Perhaps that partly explains why Japan have just ordered 20 more F-35(A)s.
https://japantoday.com/category/nati...ealth-fighters
https://japantoday.com/category/nati...ealth-fighters
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"It is only reasonable to design (the Izumo) with the prospect of possible changes of the circumstances in the decades ahead,"
Boy can we hire some of those guys??? Looking decades ahead........... would bring about panic & melt-down in Whitehall.............
Boy can we hire some of those guys??? Looking decades ahead........... would bring about panic & melt-down in Whitehall.............
In the UK we do not have China, Russia and North Korea flexing their muscles right on our doorstep, though Russia does play the same game at either end.
I'm reminded that in the early 2000s it was announced with some fanfare that the UK had decided to pay extra to pursue a flexible design for what was then CVF, so that the carrier could be converted to cats and traps if needed. I think we all remember how that turned out - it seems no-one thought to write into the contract what that actually meant.
I can't imagine the Japanese ballsing things up in quite the same way, and anyway they're not talking about converting it to CTOL...
I can't imagine the Japanese ballsing things up in quite the same way, and anyway they're not talking about converting it to CTOL...
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It is to be hoped that some Japanese Admiral on one of these damned things, after some more ill-considered exuberance, doesn't ruefully rub his chin in a decade or three and say something to the effect of: "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."
It won't be the tired old clapped out American Empire that he'll be talking about, but instead a youthful vigorous independent nation which is already fed up with Japanese and American activites of yon ilk.
Let's hope, too, that the wretched Blaircraft carriers don't get sucked into such a geopolitical vortex and morass.
It won't be the tired old clapped out American Empire that he'll be talking about, but instead a youthful vigorous independent nation which is already fed up with Japanese and American activites of yon ilk.
Let's hope, too, that the wretched Blaircraft carriers don't get sucked into such a geopolitical vortex and morass.
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"I can't imagine the Japanese ballsing things up in quite the same way"
A quick look at the Japanese navy suggests they go for steady production rates, incremental advances and upgrades......... they try and avoid the "Great Leap Forward" type of purchase (Zumwalt anyone?) that occurs elsewhere
A quick look at the Japanese navy suggests they go for steady production rates, incremental advances and upgrades......... they try and avoid the "Great Leap Forward" type of purchase (Zumwalt anyone?) that occurs elsewhere
Build your own. Chinese Zumwalt anyone?
https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=ch...w=1366&bih=599
https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=ch...w=1366&bih=599
Caz, not sure if you have kept up with current events for the past 30 years, but to describe China as "a sleeping giant" is to demonstrate a clear misunderstanding of their steady, growing presence as a world power.
