laser attacks on Pilots 1982 ..
Thread Starter
laser attacks on Pilots 1982 ..
According to the 30 year rule papers released today, during a briefing in WP capabilities Heseltine discusses a rapidly developed laser which was to be used to dazzle attacking Argentine pilots. Not deployed in the end but clever thinking all the same.
No news like old news
Sandy Woodward in his book "One Hundred Days" refers to HMS Plymouth being fitted with "the new laser equipment know locally to us as Flasher"
Last edited by Beancountercymru; 1st Aug 2013 at 08:11.
Deliverance,
RAF - Mount Tumbledown and Mount William
RAF - Harrier Diary 6
RAF - Harrier Diary 5
http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/document...-GR3-XZ997.pdf
On the evening of 13 June, a new technology was introduced to the battlefield. Two Harrier GR3s flown by Wing Commander Peter Squire and Squadron Leader Jerry Pook attacked positions in the Tumbledown and Mount William area with laser guided bombs in the first British use of the equipment. They came in over Bluff Cove, 'lobbed' their four 1,000lb bombs and hit a Company Headquarters and a machine gun post, the bombs flying down the laser 'cone' to their targets. Majors Anwyl Hughes and Mike Howes, the two Forward Air Controllers on Two Sisters designated these targets for the Harriers, although they were under artillery fire at the time.
Sunday 13 June
Combat Report for this day,
Ground forces consolidate before the final push. At last we mount two successful LGB sorties with LTMs achieving DHs against pin-point enemy positions.
Friday 11 June
Combat Report for this day,
During the run-in to a target, my aircraft is holed through the cockpit but fortunately the damage is minimal. Tony Harper and Nick Gilchrist attempt to co-ordinate LGB delivery with LTM but the latter is unserviceable.
Monday 14 June
Combat Report for this day,
There is no tasked flying but one pair of aircraft is scrambled for a LGB sortie; they arrive in the target area after a cease-fire is called. We will now have to await the outcome of negotiations.
Combat Report for this day,
Ground forces consolidate before the final push. At last we mount two successful LGB sorties with LTMs achieving DHs against pin-point enemy positions.
Friday 11 June
Combat Report for this day,
During the run-in to a target, my aircraft is holed through the cockpit but fortunately the damage is minimal. Tony Harper and Nick Gilchrist attempt to co-ordinate LGB delivery with LTM but the latter is unserviceable.
Monday 14 June
Combat Report for this day,
There is no tasked flying but one pair of aircraft is scrambled for a LGB sortie; they arrive in the target area after a cease-fire is called. We will now have to await the outcome of negotiations.
Sunday 30 May
Combat Report for this day,
The weather is showery and we spend most of the day attacking targets in the hills to the West of Stanley. Jerry Pook's aircraft is hit and he runs out of fuel some 40 miles from the ship, but he is quickly recovered and returned to the ship along with Bob Iveson. We also get the news that Geoff Glover is in Stanley hospital with a broken jaw and arm.
In a continuing effort to get high-angle bombs onto Stanley runway, we attempt a LGB delivery from high-level using a chase aircraft to actively range the runway. In fact the logic systems between the bomb seeker head and the aircraft laser-ranger are incompatible - thus no guidance. Nor are the bombs seen to explode; is there a fuzing problem - if so it won't be the first or last such error.
Monday 31 May
Combat Report for this day,
Once again the weather is showery. We carry a further and unsuccessful attempt with the LGBs on Stanley runway.
11 Jun 82 Tony Harper and one other Harrier took off from Hermes at 11.22 to attack Port Stanley, carrying Laser Guided bombs, which were launched unguided at a secondary target. Flew off again at 18.10, flown by Nick Gilchrist, to again attack the Port Stanley area.
Combat Report for this day,
The weather is showery and we spend most of the day attacking targets in the hills to the West of Stanley. Jerry Pook's aircraft is hit and he runs out of fuel some 40 miles from the ship, but he is quickly recovered and returned to the ship along with Bob Iveson. We also get the news that Geoff Glover is in Stanley hospital with a broken jaw and arm.
In a continuing effort to get high-angle bombs onto Stanley runway, we attempt a LGB delivery from high-level using a chase aircraft to actively range the runway. In fact the logic systems between the bomb seeker head and the aircraft laser-ranger are incompatible - thus no guidance. Nor are the bombs seen to explode; is there a fuzing problem - if so it won't be the first or last such error.
Monday 31 May
Combat Report for this day,
Once again the weather is showery. We carry a further and unsuccessful attempt with the LGBs on Stanley runway.
11 Jun 82 Tony Harper and one other Harrier took off from Hermes at 11.22 to attack Port Stanley, carrying Laser Guided bombs, which were launched unguided at a secondary target. Flew off again at 18.10, flown by Nick Gilchrist, to again attack the Port Stanley area.
13 Jun 82 Carried out the first successful Laser Guided Bomb (LGB) sortie during the Falklands conflict when Wg Cdr Peter Squire attacked an enemy Company HQ on Mount Tumbledown, scoring a direct hit with his second bomb, returning to Hermes at 15.30 after an hour long mission.
14 Jun 82 Argentine forces surrendered. At this stage XZ997, coded ‘31’ (from a total of 31 Harriers despatched) carried several patches on the upper surface of the port wing covering damage from small-arms fire. On this date XZ997 took off from HMS Hermes at 15.00, flown by Peter Harris, for an LGB attack on Sapper Hill in the Port Stanley area, accompanied by Harrier XZ133. The attack was called off by the Forward Air Control when white flags were seen in Port Stanley at 15.55 and the aircraft landed back on the Hermes at 16.25. Photo on board Hermes around this time – RAF Yearbook 2007 p.21.
14 Jun 82 Argentine forces surrendered. At this stage XZ997, coded ‘31’ (from a total of 31 Harriers despatched) carried several patches on the upper surface of the port wing covering damage from small-arms fire. On this date XZ997 took off from HMS Hermes at 15.00, flown by Peter Harris, for an LGB attack on Sapper Hill in the Port Stanley area, accompanied by Harrier XZ133. The attack was called off by the Forward Air Control when white flags were seen in Port Stanley at 15.55 and the aircraft landed back on the Hermes at 16.25. Photo on board Hermes around this time – RAF Yearbook 2007 p.21.
Gentleman Aviator
Good Lord - RAF carrier-borne jets and crews successfully bombing Las Malvinas! 
Does Sharky know about this? Surely some mistake ..........
Does Sharky know about this? Surely some mistake ..........
Hello all,
This is the info from the National Archives:
According to Friedman´s Naval Institute Guide to Naval Weapons Systems DEC Laser Dazzler was on both carriers, both Type 22`s and HMS Argonaut.
According to the book: "It may have caused the loss of several Argentine aircraft, including one whose pilot reported that intense glare had driven him away from an attack on HMS Argonaut"
Really, I don´t know any Argentine A/C lost due laser attack. Less than any attack was aborted due to "intense glare". I think the builder was overoptimistic at the time or trying to sell it to other buyers...
Regards!
This is the info from the National Archives:
According to Friedman´s Naval Institute Guide to Naval Weapons Systems DEC Laser Dazzler was on both carriers, both Type 22`s and HMS Argonaut.
According to the book: "It may have caused the loss of several Argentine aircraft, including one whose pilot reported that intense glare had driven him away from an attack on HMS Argonaut"
Really, I don´t know any Argentine A/C lost due laser attack. Less than any attack was aborted due to "intense glare". I think the builder was overoptimistic at the time or trying to sell it to other buyers...
Regards!
Last edited by Marcantilan; 1st Aug 2013 at 15:08.
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I understand that the device was developed by the RAE - I was told about it in very hushed tones when I transferred there in the autumn of 1982. The RAE certainly had a team looking into defensive measures against similar devices.
GR3s use of On-Board Laser for PW2 designation
Deliverance
The RAF GR3s did indeed try to use their own onboard YAG ranging Laser as a target designator for extreme Hi-Dive attacks on PSA, using VIFF to remain clear of SAMs and AAA. At that stage of the war the priority was to get deep-penetration bombs on to the PSA runway, which of course our ground forces could not mark with their LTMs because they were too far away. We had received the first PW2s in theatre and were trying to get some value out of them as soon as possible. No GR3 pilot in theatre had used PW2 before, (or flown loft bombing profiles).
We had been advised (by CTTO) a few months earlier that in emergency we could use our own on-board laser to designate for PW2. After several unsuccessful attempts had been made we were advised from UK that our LRMTS was “not compatible” with the bombs we were using. By then several attacks had been made on PSA, with no observable results.
The full story is in RAF Harrier Ground Attack Falklands, by Jerry Pook
The RAF GR3s did indeed try to use their own onboard YAG ranging Laser as a target designator for extreme Hi-Dive attacks on PSA, using VIFF to remain clear of SAMs and AAA. At that stage of the war the priority was to get deep-penetration bombs on to the PSA runway, which of course our ground forces could not mark with their LTMs because they were too far away. We had received the first PW2s in theatre and were trying to get some value out of them as soon as possible. No GR3 pilot in theatre had used PW2 before, (or flown loft bombing profiles).
We had been advised (by CTTO) a few months earlier that in emergency we could use our own on-board laser to designate for PW2. After several unsuccessful attempts had been made we were advised from UK that our LRMTS was “not compatible” with the bombs we were using. By then several attacks had been made on PSA, with no observable results.
The full story is in RAF Harrier Ground Attack Falklands, by Jerry Pook
From One That Was There..............
When LGB guidance kits were eventually delivered to us in the South Atlantic, we had no ground based troops equipped with Laser Guidance Designators to offer a realistic and proper use of designation for the bombs.
We tried to use the Laser Ranging and Marked Target Seeker equipment on the GR3 to guide LGB equipped bombs from a high level delivery profile.
I now understand that the frequency of the GR3 LRMTS was not compatible with that required by the bomb.
But we tried.
Once ground forces properly equipped were in a position to use Lasers to mark targets, then we were able to do so very successfully.
There were three sorties so tasked - the first two were, I believe, successful.
I led the third sortie which was aborted, because of the apparent surrender, and the consideration at the time, as I was told, was that there was no desire to put weapons on a target which might change the mind of the Argie troops who might then decide to fight back.
So I returned to HERMES with the bombs on board.
But that is another story!!
As to dazzling................................???????!!!!!!!?????? ?
Sorry Jerry - you were quicker than me!!
Must sharpen up!!
We tried to use the Laser Ranging and Marked Target Seeker equipment on the GR3 to guide LGB equipped bombs from a high level delivery profile.
I now understand that the frequency of the GR3 LRMTS was not compatible with that required by the bomb.
But we tried.
Once ground forces properly equipped were in a position to use Lasers to mark targets, then we were able to do so very successfully.
There were three sorties so tasked - the first two were, I believe, successful.
I led the third sortie which was aborted, because of the apparent surrender, and the consideration at the time, as I was told, was that there was no desire to put weapons on a target which might change the mind of the Argie troops who might then decide to fight back.
So I returned to HERMES with the bombs on board.
But that is another story!!
As to dazzling................................???????!!!!!!!?????? ?
Sorry Jerry - you were quicker than me!!
Must sharpen up!!
Last edited by ex-fast-jets; 1st Aug 2013 at 20:55.
AR1, I did some work with lasers in the navy a few years back. Different applications, but I recall one of the navy laser boffins I worked with had stumbled across some of the audio recordings of the 80s trials years earlier.
It stuck in his memory, as the test subject was heard saying "blimey that's bright" (insert colourful langauge accordingly), and painted quite a picture of what must have being going on in the cockpit (the audio was from a fast jet trial ac, hunter I think, but memory may fail me).
It stuck in his memory, as the test subject was heard saying "blimey that's bright" (insert colourful langauge accordingly), and painted quite a picture of what must have being going on in the cockpit (the audio was from a fast jet trial ac, hunter I think, but memory may fail me).
Last edited by JFZ90; 1st Aug 2013 at 21:10.
Dazzle weapons have been around for years on boats of differing nations and also the defensive measures that go with them - special visors, glasses and eye-patches! In fact, the great Archimedes used a huge mirror to dazzle Roman ships attacking his home port.
I remember the graphic description in one of the old CTTO manuals written by a blinded lab technician/scientist that described what it felt like - words like "I felt a popping sensation at the back of eyes, I saw some red bits floating and then it all went dark"
I'm pretty sure in '82 these types of early generation lasers did not generate anywhere near enough power to do permanent eye damage at range, and I also remember seeing the same training film with a test crew stating "Beeping hell, that is really quite bright and uncomfortable..."
These days, lots of ships sailing around the Horn of Africa have similar non-lethal weapons, such as lasers, sonic-guns, air bazookas and water jets. Nothing new really...
LJ
I remember the graphic description in one of the old CTTO manuals written by a blinded lab technician/scientist that described what it felt like - words like "I felt a popping sensation at the back of eyes, I saw some red bits floating and then it all went dark"
I'm pretty sure in '82 these types of early generation lasers did not generate anywhere near enough power to do permanent eye damage at range, and I also remember seeing the same training film with a test crew stating "Beeping hell, that is really quite bright and uncomfortable..."
These days, lots of ships sailing around the Horn of Africa have similar non-lethal weapons, such as lasers, sonic-guns, air bazookas and water jets. Nothing new really...
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 1st Aug 2013 at 22:24.
JFZ/LJ
As mentioned earlier, Admiral Sandy Woodward mentions the Flasher in One Hundred Days. Some years earlier (l980/1990?), one of the tabloids got hold of the pictures and printed them.
Anyway, Sandy Woodward gives a clue as to the purpose of dazzlers. He discusses what happens when low flying aircraft attack ships, which does not present a challenge in terms of lining up, as pilots have to do this to land. What does present a challenge to the attacking pilot is timing bomb release, particularly for those inexperienced in attacking maritime targets. He then discusses why the doctrine is for ships being attacked this way is to turn beam on to the attacker, in order to make that judgement as hard as possible.
I would imagine that a visible light laser could be an additional problem, as it would make it harder to judge the distance to the target ship, and surely a pilot would have a natural tendency to pull up? In some ways it would be like using an IR jammer to blind a missile.
Lasers that deliberately cause permanent damage to the eye are prohibited under international law on the grounds that they causes excessive and unnecessary suffering. See Ch 6.15 of JSP 383: the Manual of the Law of Armed Conflict:
‘It is prohibited to employ laser weapons specifically designed, as their sole combat function or as one of their combat functions, to cause permanent blindness to unenhanced vision.' These weapons must not be transferred to other states or non-state entities.
Other laser systems may be employed against military objectives, for example, against military optical equipment even though this may cause incidental effects, including blindness, to the users of that equipment.
‘In the employment of laser systems, . . . all feasible precautions’ must be taken ‘to avoid the incidence of permanent blindness to unenhanced vision’.
JSP 390: military laser safety is also worth reading.
As mentioned earlier, Admiral Sandy Woodward mentions the Flasher in One Hundred Days. Some years earlier (l980/1990?), one of the tabloids got hold of the pictures and printed them.
Anyway, Sandy Woodward gives a clue as to the purpose of dazzlers. He discusses what happens when low flying aircraft attack ships, which does not present a challenge in terms of lining up, as pilots have to do this to land. What does present a challenge to the attacking pilot is timing bomb release, particularly for those inexperienced in attacking maritime targets. He then discusses why the doctrine is for ships being attacked this way is to turn beam on to the attacker, in order to make that judgement as hard as possible.
I would imagine that a visible light laser could be an additional problem, as it would make it harder to judge the distance to the target ship, and surely a pilot would have a natural tendency to pull up? In some ways it would be like using an IR jammer to blind a missile.
Lasers that deliberately cause permanent damage to the eye are prohibited under international law on the grounds that they causes excessive and unnecessary suffering. See Ch 6.15 of JSP 383: the Manual of the Law of Armed Conflict:
‘It is prohibited to employ laser weapons specifically designed, as their sole combat function or as one of their combat functions, to cause permanent blindness to unenhanced vision.' These weapons must not be transferred to other states or non-state entities.
Other laser systems may be employed against military objectives, for example, against military optical equipment even though this may cause incidental effects, including blindness, to the users of that equipment.
‘In the employment of laser systems, . . . all feasible precautions’ must be taken ‘to avoid the incidence of permanent blindness to unenhanced vision’.
JSP 390: military laser safety is also worth reading.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 4th Aug 2013 at 09:09.