Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Grobs

Old 25th Jul 2013, 12:26
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: England
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Grobs

I hear of more recent and serious problems with this troubled aeroplane:
Backlog of trainee pilots as Tutor aircraft fleet is grounded - Defence Management
I can find 2 AAIB reports on this type and I am informed that it is still unreliable. Why on earth did they get rid of the Firefly?
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...WH%2001-11.pdf
Epsilon minus is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 12:29
  #2 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: England
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
BBC News - Plane crash lands in field near RAF Cranwell
Epsilon minus is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 12:36
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Old news.

Normal ops are to resume on Monday.
airpolice is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 13:56
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: front seat, facing forwards
Posts: 1,155
Received 12 Likes on 5 Posts
EFT students have started flying again at Wyton already.
just another jocky is online now  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 16:53
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lechlade, Glos.UK
Posts: 783
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Quote 'Why on earth did they get rid of the Firefly?'

Bigger question, why on earth did they get rid of the Bulldog? We all know the answer to that. And in case you don't, it was not because it was no good. It is better than Grob or Firefly
sharpend is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 17:04
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,470
Received 2,595 Likes on 1,098 Posts
Wasn't the Bulldog coming to its spar fatigue life, though to be honest in the scheme of things resparing them would have been cheap. I've respared several light aircraft, no great sweat..

Last edited by NutLoose; 25th Jul 2013 at 17:06.
NutLoose is online now  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 17:19
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As a recipient of Tutor ASIMs, I am dreading next week. I wish I had a £ for every one I have had in recent weeks, but what is worrying, is that a blind man can see trends particularly wrt oil leaks and engine RPM doing its own thing.

The aeroplane is a dog and they should have upgraded Bulldog.
Tiger_mate is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 17:29
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 2,164
Received 46 Likes on 22 Posts
I really enjoyed the Bulldog but on my first solo it waved the RPM needle at me before dumping its oil across the screen.

I think it improved my landing.

It was a cracking aeroplane though and whilst my Tutor experience is limited to a couple of trips it did not feel like a proper ac when compared to the 'dog.

Did have a trip in a Firefly with an accomplished and rather mad friend of mine and the little thing was awesome!
Just This Once... is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 17:32
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: front seat, facing forwards
Posts: 1,155
Received 12 Likes on 5 Posts
Lordy, you lot talk some twaddle.

The DASORs (ASIMS is the system, not the report) have been mandated to be put in for even the slightest reason so HQ 3FTS can keep a close eye on how the ac are taking to the new prop. In days past, most of them wouldn't have been posted.

The rest is commercially sensitive, hence you shouldn't hear about it on here.
just another jocky is online now  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 18:24
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Zummerset
Posts: 1,041
Received 13 Likes on 5 Posts
Nutloose,
1 Dog was actually re-sparred by BAe to 'prove' the design. The problem was the price that t'Baron quoted for doing the fleet; thinking they had the RAF over a barrel the price was circa £10k plus 500 hrs labour (ie about £35-40K per ac). The MoD said a polite 'no thanks' and took their business elsewhere.

See this thread http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...-spar-mod.html

I've flown all 3 (Dog on UAS, Firefly on JEFTS and Grob on the AEF) and the Dog is, by far, the most military of the three - it also has good visibility, nice stability and an acceptable rate of roll. The Grob has none of those three but does a nice flick roll and seems to glide forever.....The Firefly is the classic 'inbetweener' in my book.

Now, I'm in a desk job and itching to start AEF again.....hurry up!!
Evalu8ter is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 18:32
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Airpolice.

Normal Ops to resume on Monday? Where exactly? By normal Ops you mean moving ac around from places various to fill gaps to appear normal.....
Qfeye is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 18:42
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Near the coast
Posts: 2,360
Received 455 Likes on 120 Posts
Grobs

Don't let your rose tinted specs cloud your vision. Sure the Bulldog was good at its job but I'd take a Firefly 260 any day. I did JEFTS Church Fenton and rated the FF above the Grob.
I flew the Jaguar, loved every second of it and would happily fly it again but I'm not going to pretend it was better than its successor.
What I'm getting at is that time moves on and progress must be made. It's too easy to remember the aircraft we flew as being the best there could ever be but that is rarely the case.
If it were not for the prop/engine problems I would definitely prefer the Grob to the Bulldog. It's a more modern and capable aircraft.
I'll jump down from my soapbox now if I may.
BV
Bob Viking is online now  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 19:13
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The tutor is also a fundamentally more survivable aircraft in the event of a crash than the Bulldog ever was, an important attribute for an EFT plane.
JTIDS is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 19:22
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Wherever it is this month
Posts: 1,779
Received 75 Likes on 34 Posts
The Bulldog may not have had the excess power of the T260 or even the Tutor, and it could bite if you didn't fly the spin recovery correctly, but it handled like a military aeroplane - solid, tight, not at all sloppy, could be smacked down like a jet. Unlike the thinly-disguised-motor-glider Tutor, with its flimsy undercart and dreadfully lethargic roll rate (unless flicked, of course - a very useful skill in all other military aircraft ). The old 'Dog was a superior EFT machine IMHO.
Easy Street is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2013, 23:43
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: South of Watford
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Any ideas as to who is paying the final bill? Grob, SERCO or HM? How long will it take for the FTS staff to be refreshed, Quarterlies completed and CFSd before they can start training students? It's a mammoth task getting this train set rolling again.
pitotheat is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2013, 09:22
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: front seat, facing forwards
Posts: 1,155
Received 12 Likes on 5 Posts
BV - well said m8.

ES - not sure how many jets we "smack down" these days; perhaps you were referring to F4/Bucc which were designed for higher impact landings for carrier work. Not really relevant these days methinks.

ph - no idea & don't care really. Yr correct though, it is a long job getting back to currency but EFT students are flying again and the backlogs will be cleared.

I wont get into the argument about what makes a better EFT trainer. The Tutor is what we have and what we must work with....the rest is irrelevant. It is cheap to run, reliable (usually ) and requires a students full attention to fly well. Perhaps it isn't the ideal ac; I wish it would climb faster, but what ac has ever been ideal? Everything has its flaws.
just another jocky is online now  
Old 26th Jul 2013, 09:37
  #17 (permalink)  
Red On, Green On
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Those with a fondness for the Dog seem to forget its rather poor inverted flight fuel system. With proper fuel-injection it would have been so much better, but that wasn't really an option when the Bulldog was being specced.
airborne_artist is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2013, 10:07
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think it is necessary to understand that the UK authority's decided to buy the lighter Hoffman propeller for the aircraft rather than the more robust MT propeller.

This decision has come back to haunt them and eventually resulted in the replacement of the propellers on the whole fleet.
A and C is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2013, 10:22
  #19 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: England
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A quick poll seems to indicate that the Grob is not up to the job in terms of design and reliability and possibly, build quality.
We can see that MP's are "seriously" concerned with the backlog of student pilots waiting to complete EFTS (or get chopped in some cases), so - questions:

1) Is it now time to ditch the Grob in favour of a better trainer? Nothing wrong with the T67M and our American friends agreed with this.

2) Is the EFTS service provider paying punitive contractual fees for failing to deliver?

3) Is it possible that a combination of English weather and an unreliable aeroplane will lead to a shortage of front line pilots?

Last edited by Epsilon minus; 26th Jul 2013 at 10:23.
Epsilon minus is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2013, 10:45
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,470
Received 2,595 Likes on 1,098 Posts
Nothing wrong with the T67M and our American friends agreed with this.
Ermmmm

One Week From Deadline, T-3A Fleet Nearly Gone | Aero-News Network
NutLoose is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.