Discrimination
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There seem to be comments and the case itself sugesting that AMP and COS Pers should probably have - shock, horror - personnel experience (HR, Personnel branch background?). We seem to do this with every other specialisation but bizarrely feel that our Senior HR/Personnel officer does not have to have any actual previous experience of the HR field (commanding a Sqn/Stn is not the same thing as having specialist knowledge).
Controversial but would this help towards solving some of the issues raised here?
Controversial but would this help towards solving some of the issues raised here?
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Good point TWON. Current Air Sec (AMP) is a supplier (or is it Logistics Officer?).
He is actually one of the good guys but I don't think he has any previous professional HR experience.
Rgds SOS
He is actually one of the good guys but I don't think he has any previous professional HR experience.
Rgds SOS
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RAF ranks seem a rank behind.
Flt Lts command not very much.
Sqn Ldrs command flights.
Wg Cdrs command squadrons
Gp Capts command stations (ie wings)
Air Cdres command not very much
AVMs command Groups
After that, it gets a bit obscure.
Flt Lts command not very much.
Sqn Ldrs command flights.
Wg Cdrs command squadrons
Gp Capts command stations (ie wings)
Air Cdres command not very much
AVMs command Groups
After that, it gets a bit obscure.
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For me, at star rank, one's actual medical/surgical skills are basically meaningless... what is needed is administrative and command ability, and a general knowledge of everything dealing with delivery of medical services.
It is here where senior nurses outshine doctors in every respect... in every hospital in the western world the doctors see patients and ply their (usually) narrowly-focused specialty skills, while nurses do the 90%+ of everything else that needs to be done.
Senior nurses oversee the junior staff, organize the wards, ensure supplies are stocked, make sure medications are properly administered (to include correcting doctors' sometimes lethal oversights), schedule use of equipment/rooms/surgical theatres... you get the point. Nurses deal with multiple doctors daily, and are involved with more patients per day than any doctor ever sees.
Doctors see their patients, handle the treatment of their patients, study new developments in their narrow specialty, and do little else.
Disclaimer: during my childhood my family was close friends with several nurses in both clinics and major hospitals... and two of my three nieces are nurses in hospitals (one in the pediatric emergency department in a Des Moines, Iowa hospital and the other as a general charge nurse in a Flint, Michigan hospital.
It is here where senior nurses outshine doctors in every respect... in every hospital in the western world the doctors see patients and ply their (usually) narrowly-focused specialty skills, while nurses do the 90%+ of everything else that needs to be done.
Senior nurses oversee the junior staff, organize the wards, ensure supplies are stocked, make sure medications are properly administered (to include correcting doctors' sometimes lethal oversights), schedule use of equipment/rooms/surgical theatres... you get the point. Nurses deal with multiple doctors daily, and are involved with more patients per day than any doctor ever sees.
Doctors see their patients, handle the treatment of their patients, study new developments in their narrow specialty, and do little else.
Disclaimer: during my childhood my family was close friends with several nurses in both clinics and major hospitals... and two of my three nieces are nurses in hospitals (one in the pediatric emergency department in a Des Moines, Iowa hospital and the other as a general charge nurse in a Flint, Michigan hospital.
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Commentators here can only speculate as to who is more suited to the position in question. Truth is only those carrying out the selection/interviews actually know and I doubt very much that gender came into it.
What is apparent and unaddressed is that the RAF is still blatantly unaware of the litigation that can follow situations such as this. That is where the risk for reoccurrence is high. The military need to be prepared and advised correctly beforehand and that sadly means professional help that is outwith the skill set it currently has.
What is apparent and unaddressed is that the RAF is still blatantly unaware of the litigation that can follow situations such as this. That is where the risk for reoccurrence is high. The military need to be prepared and advised correctly beforehand and that sadly means professional help that is outwith the skill set it currently has.
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Greenknight,
Both doctors and nurses give up the majority of their clinical duties to pursue such high ranks in the defence medical services.
Both would have spent years in non clinical command posts including staff college.
They are not front line clinicians.
The doctors and nurses who elect to stay in clinical posts in the roles that you describe would never be in the running for such high ranking jobs.
Hippo
Both doctors and nurses give up the majority of their clinical duties to pursue such high ranks in the defence medical services.
Both would have spent years in non clinical command posts including staff college.
They are not front line clinicians.
The doctors and nurses who elect to stay in clinical posts in the roles that you describe would never be in the running for such high ranking jobs.
Hippo
Last edited by hippocrates; 28th Jun 2013 at 15:19.
Air Vice Marshal Mike Lloyd, who is now retired but was in charge of RAF personnel at the time, was also criticised for his lack of knowledge of discrimination legislation, something the tribunal found "incredulous".
(Just edited to say that I've just noticed that Waddo Plumber has already made this point, sorry about that)
By the way I wonder what Gp Capt Wendy would have made of the situation which existed when Mrs TTN was a QARANC nursing sister. As a female nurse with an SRN she was automatically granted a commission on entering the service (subject to passing officer training etc) whereas similarly qualified male nurses could only enter as NCOs (same rules applied in PMRAFNS). The court shoe was firmly on the other foot in those days!
Last edited by Tankertrashnav; 29th Jun 2013 at 08:57.
TTN: Male nurses from 1980 were able to direct entry into the PMRAFNS as a nursing officer provided they passed SERE at the college of knowledge, graduating either as a Fg Off with three years seniority or Flt Lt. I believe the same happened in the other nursing services.
The court shoe was firmly removed when the guys were directly commissioned, in fact some senior nursing officers did not really appreciate us as equals. The PMRAFNS was the first nursing branch to have a 'male' matron in chief in the form of Air Cdr Bob Williams. A one star post which has been downgraded and I believe the post is held by only one officer between the three services. At present the PMRAFNS again have a male Matron in Chief/Director of Nursing Services.
Regards
Air pig (SERE 175)
The court shoe was firmly removed when the guys were directly commissioned, in fact some senior nursing officers did not really appreciate us as equals. The PMRAFNS was the first nursing branch to have a 'male' matron in chief in the form of Air Cdr Bob Williams. A one star post which has been downgraded and I believe the post is held by only one officer between the three services. At present the PMRAFNS again have a male Matron in Chief/Director of Nursing Services.
Regards
Air pig (SERE 175)
Last edited by air pig; 29th Jun 2013 at 13:17.
Thanks for the info air pig. Much to her regret, Mrs TTN's commissioning date predates 1980 by ** years. (Figure redacted on the grounds she'll be less than amused if I give the precise figure 
).
Judging by the way the QARANC hierarchy ran the show in her day, looked at as an outsider I'd say that getting the blokes in came none too soon!
). Judging by the way the QARANC hierarchy ran the show in her day, looked at as an outsider I'd say that getting the blokes in came none too soon!
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TTN: The PMRAFNS was just the same as the QAs, but Air Cdr Harris was a go ahead lady as the boss (1980 - 83), but the guys did bring a different perspective to the organisation.
Looking at that font of knowledge, Wiki, the Navy have never had a male nurse in charge of its nursing branch and the Army has only had one, who is the present MiC/DNS, the PMRAFNS is now on its second. Junior service but ahead in some ways.
Looking at that font of knowledge, Wiki, the Navy have never had a male nurse in charge of its nursing branch and the Army has only had one, who is the present MiC/DNS, the PMRAFNS is now on its second. Junior service but ahead in some ways.
Last edited by air pig; 29th Jun 2013 at 17:23.
Having read the report from the ET, all I can say is 'ouch' and I fear that the promotion and assignment system is on it's way to civilian control.....
JTO - I would suggest there is now enough precedent to take every failed promotion or assignment to an ET, as the RAF are demonstrably unable to do it properly themselves.
I've only skimmed it; about to delve in for a closer read.
Initially it looked like it was a case of too much subjectivity, and the unquantifiable feeling that someone would be a better bet against the other services' candidates. I can see how it looks like she was passed over because she was a nurse, but where's the empirical evidence that it was purely down to her being female? I didn't really get the feeling a male nursing officer with the same profile would have necessarily got the job.
Initially it looked like it was a case of too much subjectivity, and the unquantifiable feeling that someone would be a better bet against the other services' candidates. I can see how it looks like she was passed over because she was a nurse, but where's the empirical evidence that it was purely down to her being female? I didn't really get the feeling a male nursing officer with the same profile would have necessarily got the job.
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Career managers/drafters/desk officers don't manage your career, they put bums on seats. You manage your career and no one else. If an Airship thinks you are good they may manage your career for you, whilst you perform. If you subsequently become crap at your job the same Airship will manage it for you in another direction. How do I know, a tour in CinC's office, a tour in a 2*s office and a tour working for ACOS A1 and seeing the posting plot on the way to the CinC's office. I'm sure it ain't changed.
Civvies couldn't do a worse job as a career manager, at least they'd get the time in post to learn how to do a good job and would learn to know the pitfalls of employment law, unlike Sqn Ldr Bloggs or Sgt Scrott who are looking out for a Cmd/IDO(delete as appropriate) tour. Plus they'll be cheaper and you won't have to give the aircrew career manager flying pay. Trouble is do that and you won't need a military AMP, COS Pers, ACOS Manning, ACOS A1, ACOS this, ACOS that and ACOS the other.
Ohh and on ranks, we've probably more COS (insert description) than we have FJ squadrons!
Civvies couldn't do a worse job as a career manager, at least they'd get the time in post to learn how to do a good job and would learn to know the pitfalls of employment law, unlike Sqn Ldr Bloggs or Sgt Scrott who are looking out for a Cmd/IDO(delete as appropriate) tour. Plus they'll be cheaper and you won't have to give the aircrew career manager flying pay. Trouble is do that and you won't need a military AMP, COS Pers, ACOS Manning, ACOS A1, ACOS this, ACOS that and ACOS the other.
Ohh and on ranks, we've probably more COS (insert description) than we have FJ squadrons!
