ISS staff vote for strike - another bonus of PAYD!
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The company may wish to provide the service that they contracted to provide but need to make a profit.
Its workforce may be paid by the company but are not 'company men'. If ISS folded its tents and crept away the new company taking over would probably employ, and be required to employ, the majority of the existing workforce.
Inevitably the new contract price would be higher in expectation that the militant employees would continue to seek higher wages.
Therein lies the flaw in contractorisation.
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But also no when we are constantly being reminded of the role of contractors in the whole force concept. And when one element of that whole force has repeatedly gone above and beyond and has been on a pay freeze (cut) for several consecutive years whilst another element is widely and regularly noted for the lack of quality and poor value for money and yet still demands pay rises, there is a higher level presentational issue here. And in that light, ISS won't do themeselves any favours in the eyes of a large proportion of the serving military who have to live on base and put up with what restricted offerings are available.
Simple fact is that ISS is a private company and it's 'rank and file' are allowed, by law, to join and be represented by a union. In this case the 'rank and file', through their union, have decided this profit making private company has not offered a wage increase in line with what they, the 'rank and file', believe is acceptable and therefore are threatening to withdraw their labour, a quite legal and well-estabilished possibility within unionised labour forces.
Whether you agree with employees (or 'rank and file') of private sector businesses (defense-related or otherwise) having the ability to strike over grievances related to working conditions is moot, it is something they are allowed to do.
Should they do it? I believe they have a good case to but hey, I'm one of those horrible socialists you've heard about, complete with union (well RCN) card of my own, you'd need to make up your own mind. In my humble opinion though "they work for the military and the military haven't had a pay rise" is a bad start.
As for the policy of contractorisation, yes I think it has its flaws and would much rather see such services controlled directly by the state (no suprises there!) but the concept is not a recent one, indeed in various parts of the military its been going on for hundreds of years. What has perhaps changed though is the military's ability to control said contractors sufficiently with it seeming that oversight has been lost.
Last edited by The Helpful Stacker; 31st May 2013 at 09:40.
Should they do it? I believe they have a good case to but hey, I'm one of those horrible socialists you've heard about, complete with union (well RCN) card of my own, you'd need to make up your own mind. In my humble opinion though "they work for the military and the military haven't had a pay rise" is a bad start.
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Hi JTO. At #13 you said
I'm with you. RAF Chefs and cooks were/are tremendous.
The food at Cranwell when I started my RAF career was a real morale booster for a young guy in his first few months away from home. I even got to enjoy Brown Windsor Soup!
In all my subsequent tours in RAF staffed messes, I enjoyed the everyday food enormously. And I never left a Guest Night or Dining in Night without feeling I had enjoyed a seriously good feast.
When I got married, sometime in the last century, I held my reception for about 90 people in the mess. All the catering was done by RAF cooks - even the wedding cake! It was great.
(I the early 70's I lived in the mess at Salalah. The head Chef (civilian) was called Uniz, he was from the sub-continent and his Crayfish Thermidor, his curries and things he used to do with eggplants (brinjal) were just wonderful.)
On the other hand, I spent some time living in contractorised messes, in the UK, in the last few years before I retired and I found the food and service was tremendous.
One Sunday, on a lonely standby (in the bar), civi cook comes through and asks me what I would like for lunch, no menu offered, so I told him what I would like. Half an hour later he brought it through to the bar on a tray. So no complaints there!
Rgds SOS
Are we really criticising RAF chefs??
I have found them to be outstanding
I have found them to be outstanding
I'm with you. RAF Chefs and cooks were/are tremendous.
The food at Cranwell when I started my RAF career was a real morale booster for a young guy in his first few months away from home. I even got to enjoy Brown Windsor Soup!
In all my subsequent tours in RAF staffed messes, I enjoyed the everyday food enormously. And I never left a Guest Night or Dining in Night without feeling I had enjoyed a seriously good feast.
When I got married, sometime in the last century, I held my reception for about 90 people in the mess. All the catering was done by RAF cooks - even the wedding cake! It was great.
(I the early 70's I lived in the mess at Salalah. The head Chef (civilian) was called Uniz, he was from the sub-continent and his Crayfish Thermidor, his curries and things he used to do with eggplants (brinjal) were just wonderful.)
On the other hand, I spent some time living in contractorised messes, in the UK, in the last few years before I retired and I found the food and service was tremendous.
One Sunday, on a lonely standby (in the bar), civi cook comes through and asks me what I would like for lunch, no menu offered, so I told him what I would like. Half an hour later he brought it through to the bar on a tray. So no complaints there!
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 31st May 2013 at 12:13.
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I've just remembered - late last year (Nov IIRC) I Walked from Bishopsgate into Liverpool Street Stn through the adjacent arena type square (normally occupied by yuppies on lunch break or after work dinkies) and came across some sort of sleep in.
The square was full of sleeping bags and at one end an RAF field catering Sqn had set up a full mobile kitchen. I didn't get the chance to sample the grub, but the aroma was fantastic. The whole thing was in aid of a charity for the homeless.
It was great to see the, hard working, boys and girls doing their bit for the unlucky members of our society.
(Thread creep I know - but only a bit!)
Rgds SOS
The square was full of sleeping bags and at one end an RAF field catering Sqn had set up a full mobile kitchen. I didn't get the chance to sample the grub, but the aroma was fantastic. The whole thing was in aid of a charity for the homeless.
It was great to see the, hard working, boys and girls doing their bit for the unlucky members of our society.
(Thread creep I know - but only a bit!)
Rgds SOS
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Melchett I am normally in agreement with your POV but this confuses me:
Do you mean the service industry contractors that cite the number and value of Government contracts that they have been awarded.
I see that as a company issue.
Who? Employees or the company? The employees often have little choice. Many would have been TUPEd in from the civil service and previous contractor(s). Not for them is the kudos for working for the military.
But therein lies the rub. They can indeed not so much pick and chose but adhere strictly to the contract.
Most contracts will have been awarded where the contractor has built in an annualised inflation element into the contract. If he got it wrong then he will try and correct it by economies.
Only where the contractor fails to meet the contract terms can the Service hold him to account. The first line of attack is the Contract Monitoring Team. Now many contracts will contain errors such as over specifying something, say too many meals per week, but the contractor has only had to supply 80%. A good team can get the contractor to, say, increase food quantities or qualities to return the output to the same contract value.
That notional saving (however it arises) should not be used by the contractor to balance his books.
I see that as a company issue.
but then in the next breath are happy to stamp their feet when they don't get their own way.
If we have to put up with contractorisation as part of a one force concept, fine, we will. But you are in or you're out, you can't pick and choose.
Most contracts will have been awarded where the contractor has built in an annualised inflation element into the contract. If he got it wrong then he will try and correct it by economies.
Only where the contractor fails to meet the contract terms can the Service hold him to account. The first line of attack is the Contract Monitoring Team. Now many contracts will contain errors such as over specifying something, say too many meals per week, but the contractor has only had to supply 80%. A good team can get the contractor to, say, increase food quantities or qualities to return the output to the same contract value.
That notional saving (however it arises) should not be used by the contractor to balance his books.
Or is the problem that the MoD, in a desperate effort to be seen to cut costs to please the Chancellor, takes the standard step of removing something (in this case catering) from the core balance sheet but then has to ensure that the winning contractor's bid is sufficiently low to show the required savings?
It is planning to fail and seems to have done just that.
It is planning to fail and seems to have done just that.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
crab, indeed, Prime was a perfect example. Painting buildings was one of the contracted items in the contract. The contractor came in with a plan, the plan included an element of profit for painting buildings.
Come year 2 the painting element was withdrawn. The contractor lost the planned profit, and contractor was now over manned for smaller contract.
Come year 2 the painting element was withdrawn. The contractor lost the planned profit, and contractor was now over manned for smaller contract.
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It was a fight that my old branch was never going to win, we topped out at Wg Cdr when our branch sponsor was moved sideways after openly criticising PAYD at a grown up conference. AOC's rollocking and all that. I helped work up an option up that meant the RAF Catering Branch could have done PAYD for the same price, quell surprise it was turned down. I had face time with CAS and that bloke who runs the police in Rutland, claimed it was an Army led party and all that. Poor leadership in my opinion!
Saving across all 3 services £120 million year for PAYD. Losing the goodwill of some of the best people I had the best part of working with for over 21 years, priceless.
Grrghhhhhh!!!!!!!!
Saving across all 3 services £120 million year for PAYD. Losing the goodwill of some of the best people I had the best part of working with for over 21 years, priceless.
Grrghhhhhh!!!!!!!!
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Strike, you say?
F95 at home base? Thank you, please....or, b, wil they just call in the Catering Branch who should have been in the game all along...
Seriously though, show me one civilianised or contractorised element of the MoD that is actually adding value to our lives.
No, thought not.
F95 at home base? Thank you, please....or, b, wil they just call in the Catering Branch who should have been in the game all along...
Seriously though, show me one civilianised or contractorised element of the MoD that is actually adding value to our lives.
No, thought not.
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 31st May 2013 at 22:11.
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Uncle G - if you want to see contractorisation delivering an improvement to Service life, take a look at Northwood. They've re-built the whole place and it's so much better than the dreary old site that it was. As someone noted further up this thread (and I completely agree), they serve pretty good food in all 3 Messes too.
Couldn't agree more that some contracts and some contractors aren't in it for the greater good of the average Serviceperson, but it seems a bit harsh to put everyone in that bracket.
The PAYD 'core menu' price is fixed to the basic Serviceperson's wage - so our pay freeze isn't just hurting us (but I'm not sympathetic). A possible solution would be not to order the basic 'core menu' and moan about it - order something else from the menu and pay 50p more. Or go to Tesco.....
Couldn't agree more that some contracts and some contractors aren't in it for the greater good of the average Serviceperson, but it seems a bit harsh to put everyone in that bracket.
The PAYD 'core menu' price is fixed to the basic Serviceperson's wage - so our pay freeze isn't just hurting us (but I'm not sympathetic). A possible solution would be not to order the basic 'core menu' and moan about it - order something else from the menu and pay 50p more. Or go to Tesco.....
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I was told by one of the civvy staff where I am that when ISS came in the civvy staff all enjoyed a pay cut, which left at least one of them struggling to pay their mortgage. So wanting a decent pay rise to at least get themselves back on an even keel, as it were, doesn't seem so bad.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I know of one unit where the staff were TUPEd in. Later they thought that another unit, same contractor, same roles, was being paid more and they threatened a strike until they were shown that their preserved CS Ts&Cs were in fact much better.
So I wonder what the truth is.
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Pay and conditions may have remained the same but perhaps they lost their regular overtime.
Rector - Northwood is hardly an example that could be compared to other units when you consider the rank of those that use the facilities.
With regards to paying the extra money for a better meal, yes that is an acceptable way to combat the poor core menu. However, when visiting N, Wales recently the 'Supreme' choice was ordered and it was slop and returned to the chef. The alternative wasn't much better!! Which was a complete shame, as previously dining there it was probably one of the better facilities I have used. More importantly, this whole PAYD/CRL puts the pressure on the ISS staff to make excuses for the inadequacies of the contract.
It would be interesting to see what HMP use to model their catering contract on?
With regards to paying the extra money for a better meal, yes that is an acceptable way to combat the poor core menu. However, when visiting N, Wales recently the 'Supreme' choice was ordered and it was slop and returned to the chef. The alternative wasn't much better!! Which was a complete shame, as previously dining there it was probably one of the better facilities I have used. More importantly, this whole PAYD/CRL puts the pressure on the ISS staff to make excuses for the inadequacies of the contract.
It would be interesting to see what HMP use to model their catering contract on?
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On arriving at a certain Bucks HQ in 2010, I was delighted to find on my first evening that the mess had not gone over to PAYD - complimenting th Chef on the excellent food, he replied "Don't get used to it, Pay-as-you-dine starts in 2 weeks!" He was right. Five of the chefs left in the first 10 days mainly because they couldn't bring themselves to work to the strict recipes demanded by the contractor. Food is now distinctly average.
It's also clearly not true that T&Cs can't be changed. The mess staff there were paid weekly. Suddenly, the company changed this to monthly. In effect, this meant that they wouldn't get paid their next 3 expected pay packets. For the domestic staff in particular this was a massive potential problem.
MAC monitoring is not working, and the company seems free to increase its prices whenever it likes. Those units where a better standard of food is maintained appear to have done so by abandoning the core meals concept (I think Northwood is one of theme based on a recent visit).
I often wonder whether PAYD would ever have been accepted by the commanders if they'd started at the HQs. Certainly at Henlow (a PAYD Trials Site) we kept asking when the 'Trial' would be finished and we could go back to the old system. Answer came there none.
As for HMP, some work was done by a mate at Henlow following a change-over of contractor and a new menu. The menu was NOT up to the standards demanded by HMP guidelines.
STH
It's also clearly not true that T&Cs can't be changed. The mess staff there were paid weekly. Suddenly, the company changed this to monthly. In effect, this meant that they wouldn't get paid their next 3 expected pay packets. For the domestic staff in particular this was a massive potential problem.
MAC monitoring is not working, and the company seems free to increase its prices whenever it likes. Those units where a better standard of food is maintained appear to have done so by abandoning the core meals concept (I think Northwood is one of theme based on a recent visit).
I often wonder whether PAYD would ever have been accepted by the commanders if they'd started at the HQs. Certainly at Henlow (a PAYD Trials Site) we kept asking when the 'Trial' would be finished and we could go back to the old system. Answer came there none.
As for HMP, some work was done by a mate at Henlow following a change-over of contractor and a new menu. The menu was NOT up to the standards demanded by HMP guidelines.
STH
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 2nd Jun 2013 at 08:18.
On the question of TUPE, not as simple as it appears, only certain elements of contract protected and then only for 2 years normally. If part of a big unionised workforce can sometimes be reasonable deal but the legal requirement isnt very good for most people. Sounds like the normal business model in most places these days, whatever profits being made they want more and pay big bonuses to senior managers regardless . If a workforce is looked after no one needs to join a union, which would be the cheaper option in the long run !
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Mess Staff Strike
The strike is today, has anyone at Cranwell, Scampton, Kirton in Lindsey, Cosford or Shawbury seen any effects?
BBC News - RAF civilian staff go on strike in pay dispute
'ISS said it was "disappointed" 120 of its 3,000 staff at RAF sites had rejected the offer of a 1% pay increase and had decided to walk out.'
I know they aren't paid much, but shouldn't they remember the pay rises for those they serve have only just got 1% and of course they have no option to walk out!
BBC News - RAF civilian staff go on strike in pay dispute
'ISS said it was "disappointed" 120 of its 3,000 staff at RAF sites had rejected the offer of a 1% pay increase and had decided to walk out.'
I know they aren't paid much, but shouldn't they remember the pay rises for those they serve have only just got 1% and of course they have no option to walk out!