Woolwich
This witness account is worth reading:
Woolwich attack: interview with eyewitness Ingrid Loyau-Kennett | UK news | The Guardian
Woolwich attack: interview with eyewitness Ingrid Loyau-Kennett | UK news | The Guardian
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Beagle: The same thing up to the mid-70s. I once asked a fellow drinker in my local in Mile End (another regular was one Mrs Davis, w/o The George Who Was Innocent, OK!) how come I was able to leave my soft-top Triumph Herald in the street and not have to worry about.
"Well, the thing is, if people don't know who you 're friendly wiv, they'll leave well alone. In any case, all the villains round here goes up West of an evening."
Self-regulation worked well and as long as not too many serious lines were crossed, the local constabulary had a relatively peaceful life, I'm told.
"Well, the thing is, if people don't know who you 're friendly wiv, they'll leave well alone. In any case, all the villains round here goes up West of an evening."
Self-regulation worked well and as long as not too many serious lines were crossed, the local constabulary had a relatively peaceful life, I'm told.
Ah good, the death sentence debate. Anyone want to bet that a reasoned debate here will result in at least one person changing their stance on that issue?
Anyway, 'Death's to good for them.'
Anyway, 'Death's to good for them.'
It's not very often I agree with Pr00ne, but
is spot on. However, normal service is resumed shortly thereafter with
which is b0ll0cks.
Any attempt to rationalise what AQ/T and their acolytes have done by linking incidents like this to Telic or Herrick needs to be absolutely clear that we are fighting a political ideology hiding behind a religion. An ideology that is unremittingly hostile to liberal western beliefs and attitudes and one which would still be committing atrocities against western interests and people whether we had troops deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Mali or anywhere else. There are sufficient examples of terrorist acts by these groups that easily predate 9/11 (which itself predates Herrick & Telic in case anyone needed reminding).
The collective "we" are in an ideological war (not with a religion) whether we like it or not. Hoping it will go away is unfortunately not an option. The victim of yesterdays atrocity was another casualty of that war.
The way to win this war is to robustly challenge the arguments and tenets of that ideology with our own in every forum and arena and that means treating the perpetrators as the criminals they are and not making excuses for sensitivities of others in some sort of political relativism argument. That includes sentencing according to the law of the land if found guilty by due process, however distasteful we may find the experience. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if put in an ordinary jail if convicted of the crime charged, they'll probably have a far more unpleasant time over a sustained period.
Most importantly, RIP Tommy. We must make sure that his family's loss is not in vain.
A hundred thousand armed Police on the streets of London would not have save that life. If, as appears to have happened, it was a targeted running down of this individual with a car followed by an attempt to behead him and be filmed doing it, armed Police would have made not one jot of difference.
A terrible tragedy is most certainly is, but we have to face the fact that this is all linked to western foreign policy over the last decade, an unmitigated and complete disaster
Any attempt to rationalise what AQ/T and their acolytes have done by linking incidents like this to Telic or Herrick needs to be absolutely clear that we are fighting a political ideology hiding behind a religion. An ideology that is unremittingly hostile to liberal western beliefs and attitudes and one which would still be committing atrocities against western interests and people whether we had troops deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Mali or anywhere else. There are sufficient examples of terrorist acts by these groups that easily predate 9/11 (which itself predates Herrick & Telic in case anyone needed reminding).
The collective "we" are in an ideological war (not with a religion) whether we like it or not. Hoping it will go away is unfortunately not an option. The victim of yesterdays atrocity was another casualty of that war.
The way to win this war is to robustly challenge the arguments and tenets of that ideology with our own in every forum and arena and that means treating the perpetrators as the criminals they are and not making excuses for sensitivities of others in some sort of political relativism argument. That includes sentencing according to the law of the land if found guilty by due process, however distasteful we may find the experience. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if put in an ordinary jail if convicted of the crime charged, they'll probably have a far more unpleasant time over a sustained period.
Most importantly, RIP Tommy. We must make sure that his family's loss is not in vain.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 64
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One would hope that a million silent, determined people fill the streets on the day of this young man's funeral. Controlled people power will clean out this nest of rats.
I believe they made to attack the armed officers, presumably seeking martyrdom. As a result both have been injured, will be questioned and tried. I cannot see any other result than a very long, quite probably indefinite prison sentence. Not quite so glorious as martyrdom. Killing them is exactly what they want to make themselves appear even more heroic in their eyes.
And can we put the religion-bashing to one side please? I'm a practicing Christian, have known and worked with Muslims, Jews and others of different faiths quite peacefully for many years, and while I agree that religion is used as the reason for many a conflict, it is also the reason why so many people have done so much good with their lives.
Besides, I'd much rather believe in God than Richard Dawkins.
And can we put the religion-bashing to one side please? I'm a practicing Christian, have known and worked with Muslims, Jews and others of different faiths quite peacefully for many years, and while I agree that religion is used as the reason for many a conflict, it is also the reason why so many people have done so much good with their lives.
Besides, I'd much rather believe in God than Richard Dawkins.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what astonishes me is the bravery of the general public - instead of running screaming in all directions they actually try to help the victim and argue with the killers - men clearly demented, covered in blood and waving a bloody great cleaver.................
these people are a lot braver than I am
these people are a lot braver than I am
Update from BBC News:
Police have raided two addresses.
Officers forced their way into a flat and shattered the door frame as they
raided an address believed to belong to one of the attackers on a Greenwich housing estate at 05:30 BST.
Neighbours said two sisters in their 30s, an older woman and a teenaged boy were taken away in a police van.
An address in Saxilby, Lincolnshire is also being searched in connection with the attack
Also, the murdered man has been confirmed as a soldier.
Police have raided two addresses.
Officers forced their way into a flat and shattered the door frame as they
raided an address believed to belong to one of the attackers on a Greenwich housing estate at 05:30 BST.
Neighbours said two sisters in their 30s, an older woman and a teenaged boy were taken away in a police van.
An address in Saxilby, Lincolnshire is also being searched in connection with the attack
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 23rd May 2013 at 11:02.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: UK
Age: 56
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hearts go out to the family of this soldier and his brothers in arms. How incredibly sad for them.
Really it beggars belief. I hope to hell these two homicidal maniacs get what they deserve.
Really it beggars belief. I hope to hell these two homicidal maniacs get what they deserve.
Just had a telephone message from number one son who's in the Met. He and everyone else are on twelve hour shifts for the foreseable future. Pity they're paid in lieu and not ackers, they'd be earning a fortune.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: East Sussex UK
Age: 66
Posts: 6,995
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Incredulous that this has happened in England ... we have certainly reached rock bottom in terms of our social fabric being in tatters, lack of respect for others and no common decency.
I have no personal solutions apart from holding a firm blief that we are far too lenient with wrong doers and people who threaten our way of life.
My thoughts are with the young soldier, his family and colleagues.
RIP young man ...
Coff.
I have no personal solutions apart from holding a firm blief that we are far too lenient with wrong doers and people who threaten our way of life.
My thoughts are with the young soldier, his family and colleagues.
RIP young man ...
Coff.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 59
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to a twit feed
Looks like Police shot one and the other tried to shoot but the pistol blew up injuring himself.
The first guy goes for the female fed with the machete and she not even ramping she took man out like robocop never seen nutn like it
Then the next breda try buss off the rusty 45 and it just backfires and blows mans finger clean off... Feds didnt pet to just take him out!!
Then the next breda try buss off the rusty 45 and it just backfires and blows mans finger clean off... Feds didnt pet to just take him out!!
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hope the soldiers family agree to a funeral with full military honours and the public have a chance to show their support for his family and comrades in arms.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
something is bugging me about the events in Woolwich - it took armed police 20 minutes to arrive and yet the 2 blokes who killed the soldier , were hanging around giving facebook interviews and didn't try to escape.
just walking away and catching a bus would have seen them long gone!
just walking away and catching a bus would have seen them long gone!
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your handgun blowing up in your hand and taking your fingers off is just
God's way of telling you that he hates you. God IS great!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Behind you all the way!
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have an idea in the form of a step-by-step guide of dealing with these 'Terrorists' that I'd like to throw to the audience.
1) Let these monsters get better in hospital.
2) Make them stand trial by a jury of 12 members of the public.
3) When found guilty let sentence be passed...
... Now this next bit is the change I propose, based on that I am more ProLife than Pro Capital Punishment, yet Anti-Neither & can see the for's & against's in both sides of both arguments...
4) Take them to a place where they can be physically paralysed, and I mean spinal chord severed or placed in a drug induced conscious paralysis, so they can't speak or move but are fully awake, aware of what's going on around them, yet powerless to do ANYTHING about it.
Effectively it's depriving of a life NOT taking a life. If they think their actions will gain them entry into paradise where their 72 virgins await them, then they'll have to wait a good few years for them. In the mean time, they can spend their remaining years in a Prison Hospital.
And what will the benefits/ costs be?
1) They will be a low security risk while paralysed.
2) They will be unable to try 'Hunger Striking' to bait the 'Political Sympathy' card.
3) They will be unable to spread their bile, poison & rhetoric, radicalising possible converts.
4) It denies them the 'Martyrdom' kudos.
5) It gives a real sense of real justice to tackle a real threat to & problem for us all.
It will be an effective deterent.
Discuss.
1) Let these monsters get better in hospital.
2) Make them stand trial by a jury of 12 members of the public.
3) When found guilty let sentence be passed...
... Now this next bit is the change I propose, based on that I am more ProLife than Pro Capital Punishment, yet Anti-Neither & can see the for's & against's in both sides of both arguments...
4) Take them to a place where they can be physically paralysed, and I mean spinal chord severed or placed in a drug induced conscious paralysis, so they can't speak or move but are fully awake, aware of what's going on around them, yet powerless to do ANYTHING about it.
Effectively it's depriving of a life NOT taking a life. If they think their actions will gain them entry into paradise where their 72 virgins await them, then they'll have to wait a good few years for them. In the mean time, they can spend their remaining years in a Prison Hospital.
And what will the benefits/ costs be?
1) They will be a low security risk while paralysed.
2) They will be unable to try 'Hunger Striking' to bait the 'Political Sympathy' card.
3) They will be unable to spread their bile, poison & rhetoric, radicalising possible converts.
4) It denies them the 'Martyrdom' kudos.
5) It gives a real sense of real justice to tackle a real threat to & problem for us all.
It will be an effective deterent.
Discuss.
Someone, and I can't remember where, predicted a civil war in this country
I wish I had the intelligence to put it as succinctly as this, so well said NaB:
RiP young man, thoughts and condolences to family, friends and colleagues.
Originally Posted by Not a boffin
It's not very often I agree with Pr00ne, but
Quote:
A hundred thousand armed Police on the streets of London would not have save that life. If, as appears to have happened, it was a targeted running down of this individual with a car followed by an attempt to behead him and be filmed doing it, armed Police would have made not one jot of difference.
is spot on. However, normal service is resumed shortly thereafter with
Quote:
A terrible tragedy is most certainly is, but we have to face the fact that this is all linked to western foreign policy over the last decade, an unmitigated and complete disaster
which is b0ll0cks.
Any attempt to rationalise what AQ/T and their acolytes have done by linking incidents like this to Telic or Herrick needs to be absolutely clear that we are fighting a political ideology hiding behind a religion. An ideology that is unremittingly hostile to liberal western beliefs and attitudes and one which would still be committing atrocities against western interests and people whether we had troops deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Mali or anywhere else. There are sufficient examples of terrorist acts by these groups that easily predate 9/11 (which itself predates Herrick & Telic in case anyone needed reminding).
The collective "we" are in an ideological war (not with a religion) whether we like it or not. Hoping it will go away is unfortunately not an option. The victim of yesterdays atrocity was another casualty of that war.
The way to win this war is to robustly challenge the arguments and tenets of that ideology with our own in every forum and arena and that means treating the perpetrators as the criminals they are and not making excuses for sensitivities of others in some sort of political relativism argument. That includes sentencing according to the law of the land if found guilty by due process, however distasteful we may find the experience. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if put in an ordinary jail if convicted of the crime charged, they'll probably have a far more unpleasant time over a sustained period.
Most importantly, RIP Tommy. We must make sure that his family's loss is not in vain.
Quote:
A hundred thousand armed Police on the streets of London would not have save that life. If, as appears to have happened, it was a targeted running down of this individual with a car followed by an attempt to behead him and be filmed doing it, armed Police would have made not one jot of difference.
is spot on. However, normal service is resumed shortly thereafter with
Quote:
A terrible tragedy is most certainly is, but we have to face the fact that this is all linked to western foreign policy over the last decade, an unmitigated and complete disaster
which is b0ll0cks.
Any attempt to rationalise what AQ/T and their acolytes have done by linking incidents like this to Telic or Herrick needs to be absolutely clear that we are fighting a political ideology hiding behind a religion. An ideology that is unremittingly hostile to liberal western beliefs and attitudes and one which would still be committing atrocities against western interests and people whether we had troops deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Mali or anywhere else. There are sufficient examples of terrorist acts by these groups that easily predate 9/11 (which itself predates Herrick & Telic in case anyone needed reminding).
The collective "we" are in an ideological war (not with a religion) whether we like it or not. Hoping it will go away is unfortunately not an option. The victim of yesterdays atrocity was another casualty of that war.
The way to win this war is to robustly challenge the arguments and tenets of that ideology with our own in every forum and arena and that means treating the perpetrators as the criminals they are and not making excuses for sensitivities of others in some sort of political relativism argument. That includes sentencing according to the law of the land if found guilty by due process, however distasteful we may find the experience. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if put in an ordinary jail if convicted of the crime charged, they'll probably have a far more unpleasant time over a sustained period.
Most importantly, RIP Tommy. We must make sure that his family's loss is not in vain.