The Big Anniversary
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Totally agree, these gentlemen have and will always have my utmost respect. I owe them such a debt, here's to you Sir.
Originally Posted by Wensleydale
Far too predictably easy to wind up!!!!!! Tirpitz received many hits during the attack and it is impossible to state categorically which squadron sank her (It's a typical QI "nobody knows"). Its about time some people grew up and accepted that it was a joint responsibility!
And I've spoken with a tail gunner from the raid who saw the boat start to go before IX arrived.
But as you say, in fact we will never know for sure; I was just trying to see why you hadn't included both sqns.
I see the RAF website can't bring itself to mention the name of Guy Gibson's black labrador "Nigger" - RAF - Dambusters Crew and Code WordsDambusters Crew and Code Words
What is the world coming to when you can't use a historical name in its own context!
Remember "Never mind the bollocks, it's the sex pistols..." furrore? In the end the word "bollocks" was actually deemed ok as it was referring to the clergy and not in another context!
LJ
What is the world coming to when you can't use a historical name in its own context!
Remember "Never mind the bollocks, it's the sex pistols..." furrore? In the end the word "bollocks" was actually deemed ok as it was referring to the clergy and not in another context!
LJ
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But as you say, in fact we will never know for sure; I was just trying to see
why you hadn't included both sqns
To expand on the details given in Coffman Starter's post, the medals in the picture which may be unfamiliar to many of us are the Companion's Badge of the New Zealand Order of Merit (worn around the neck) which replaced various British orders when New Zealand adopted its own system in 1996, and the Queen's Service Order (seen between Sqn Ldr Munro's DSO and DFC) which came in in 1975 and is restricted to 30 new members of the order per annum.
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I have copy/pasted the post below from a thread that I contributed to for last year's Op Chastise anniversary; I do this for anyone that may not be so fortunate as many PPRuNers in being able to readily experience these places up-close. I promise not to wheel it out again!
Two weeks ago, I decided to visit the Moehne, Eder & Sorpe dams as my own tribute to the brave men of 617 Sqn. Departing my base on the Mosel river, I mounted my trusty motorcycle and sallied forth, terrifying sundry old ladies along my route.
The end of day 1 saw me with an ar$e like a Japanese flag, and positioned for an overnight stay in Guetersloh town, my stamping ground for 4yrs in the mid/late 80's. Dear God, the Army have turned the main gate of the camp into a fortress; however, I was able to glimpse the Sgt's Mess from the roadway. I tried to conjure up memories of the bar therein, but gave up.
Day 2 noon & I'm sitting on the parapet of the Moehne dam with my decrepit c.1960 Pan paperback Dambusters book (Brickhill), reading the account of the attack. All very vivid, and the water level was as high as it was in 1943 - very near the top of the dam. I was able to find clear evidence of .303 bullet strikes on the coping stones of the parapets - those on the towers seem to have been airbrushed out. 617's gunners had been busy indeed.
So, jumping onto Mr Honda's finest, I tore off south to the Sorpe (30mins ride). The very different construction of this dam is evident; massive earth banking fore & aft of a concrete core. I couldn't really see how they expected to crack this one - the weapon was delivered by flying along parallel to the line of the dam, and was not rotated before release. 617 did re-arrange the parapet promenade though.
On the bike again & off to the Eder (great weather all 3 days of the trip). This is a c.2hr ride east through lovely country (or c.15mins in a Lancaster, if you are pushed for time.....).
The Eder dam is of a similar construction to the Moehne. Although 617 did not encounter AAA here (the Germans thought its' best defence was the local terrain), the flying required to drop the weapon here was truly breathtaking. Diving steeply to water level via the valley just west of Schloss Waldeck, then turning c.90' left over the spit of land which extends from the south shore, they had 5-6 seconds to establish speed & height before reaching the drop point c.400m from the dam. Beyond the dam, the terrain immediately rises sharply on the left & in front; a very hard climbing turn to the right would be required, and all of this at night. The night of the attack was a full moon; staying at the very nice hotel on the north shore, close to the dam, I was able to walk along the dam on the first-quarter moon-lit night of my visit. The night was gin-clear; though 617 had a full moon, I marvelled at the bravery and skill of these very young men on that night 69 years ago.
I salute them all.
HB
Two weeks ago, I decided to visit the Moehne, Eder & Sorpe dams as my own tribute to the brave men of 617 Sqn. Departing my base on the Mosel river, I mounted my trusty motorcycle and sallied forth, terrifying sundry old ladies along my route.
The end of day 1 saw me with an ar$e like a Japanese flag, and positioned for an overnight stay in Guetersloh town, my stamping ground for 4yrs in the mid/late 80's. Dear God, the Army have turned the main gate of the camp into a fortress; however, I was able to glimpse the Sgt's Mess from the roadway. I tried to conjure up memories of the bar therein, but gave up.
Day 2 noon & I'm sitting on the parapet of the Moehne dam with my decrepit c.1960 Pan paperback Dambusters book (Brickhill), reading the account of the attack. All very vivid, and the water level was as high as it was in 1943 - very near the top of the dam. I was able to find clear evidence of .303 bullet strikes on the coping stones of the parapets - those on the towers seem to have been airbrushed out. 617's gunners had been busy indeed.
So, jumping onto Mr Honda's finest, I tore off south to the Sorpe (30mins ride). The very different construction of this dam is evident; massive earth banking fore & aft of a concrete core. I couldn't really see how they expected to crack this one - the weapon was delivered by flying along parallel to the line of the dam, and was not rotated before release. 617 did re-arrange the parapet promenade though.
On the bike again & off to the Eder (great weather all 3 days of the trip). This is a c.2hr ride east through lovely country (or c.15mins in a Lancaster, if you are pushed for time.....).
The Eder dam is of a similar construction to the Moehne. Although 617 did not encounter AAA here (the Germans thought its' best defence was the local terrain), the flying required to drop the weapon here was truly breathtaking. Diving steeply to water level via the valley just west of Schloss Waldeck, then turning c.90' left over the spit of land which extends from the south shore, they had 5-6 seconds to establish speed & height before reaching the drop point c.400m from the dam. Beyond the dam, the terrain immediately rises sharply on the left & in front; a very hard climbing turn to the right would be required, and all of this at night. The night of the attack was a full moon; staying at the very nice hotel on the north shore, close to the dam, I was able to walk along the dam on the first-quarter moon-lit night of my visit. The night was gin-clear; though 617 had a full moon, I marvelled at the bravery and skill of these very young men on that night 69 years ago.
I salute them all.
HB
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Some photo's of the movie.......
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I remember going on an organised tour for the 50th anniversary of the raid, and in our group (there were several buses, ours was fortunate enough to have Hopgood's sister onboard, the first time she had visited the place, which was quite emotional in itself.)
After the planned synopsis of the raid was given by (I think,) Alan Cooper, he asked if there were any questions... "Yes," pipes up a guy from our bus, "how many nights a week did they do this?" Cue gasps of astonishment and disbelief from the rest of the crowd... needless to say, our man didn't ask any further questions after that...
Several years ago, I also visited the Ennepe dam, which was quite difficult to find (by car) and lying in quite a steep valley, so it would have been as challenging to attack as the Eder. I have some photos I took of both the Moehne and Eder dams, and the repair work is quite easy to make out, even to this day, particularly so for the Eder.
After the planned synopsis of the raid was given by (I think,) Alan Cooper, he asked if there were any questions... "Yes," pipes up a guy from our bus, "how many nights a week did they do this?" Cue gasps of astonishment and disbelief from the rest of the crowd... needless to say, our man didn't ask any further questions after that...
Several years ago, I also visited the Ennepe dam, which was quite difficult to find (by car) and lying in quite a steep valley, so it would have been as challenging to attack as the Eder. I have some photos I took of both the Moehne and Eder dams, and the repair work is quite easy to make out, even to this day, particularly so for the Eder.
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The picture on the RAF site Leon mentioned above...
..is from Gibson's time commanding 106 Squadron. Note 1 percent of Avro Manchester production parked in the background.
They also misspelled "Spam" Spafford's surname.
Anyway, I have a 1/48th Dambuster Lancaster model in the pile, probably a good time to pull it out and start on it.
They also misspelled "Spam" Spafford's surname.
Anyway, I have a 1/48th Dambuster Lancaster model in the pile, probably a good time to pull it out and start on it.
Well, at least this thread ran to 2 pages before someone had to mention that $odding dog....
I recall bumbling around the Edersee in a canoe during EX KING ROCK 1969 from RAFC - but far more fun was flying an F-4 around the dam on the 40th anniversary of the raid during EX. BOLD GAUNTLET 83....
The Gutersloh SNavO had failed to tell us that it was 'strengstens verboten' to do such a thing. Good job we didn't tell him about the Mohne.
Still, no-one complained.
I recall bumbling around the Edersee in a canoe during EX KING ROCK 1969 from RAFC - but far more fun was flying an F-4 around the dam on the 40th anniversary of the raid during EX. BOLD GAUNTLET 83....
The Gutersloh SNavO had failed to tell us that it was 'strengstens verboten' to do such a thing. Good job we didn't tell him about the Mohne.
Still, no-one complained.
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mention that $odding dog
I wonder how many of the free commemorative booklets will be on a certain auction site by the end of the day?
Here’s an extremely good analysis of the raid by Dan Snow, courtesy of the BBC. Reappraisal of OP CHASTISE
In many respects this Operation presaged many facets of the Revolution in Military Affairs of the early 1990s, such as Effects based operations, the use of elite crews, precision weapons, discrete and scientific targeting…
And pause to remember the 52 aircrew – all volunteers - who died and the thousands of civilians, POWs and forced labourers who also perished during the attack and in the aftermath.
One comment, however: Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris, as CinC Bomber Command, according to the article above, was dismissive of the effects of the raid. I have Sir Arthur Harris’s ‘Bomber Offensive’ in my office; quite the contrary – he stresses the impact on canal navigation and industrial production as a result of the raid and explains why there weren’t follow-up attacks. He also wrote his book at the end of the war, when UPKEEP – the ‘bouncing bomb’ - was still on the Secret list.
In many respects this Operation presaged many facets of the Revolution in Military Affairs of the early 1990s, such as Effects based operations, the use of elite crews, precision weapons, discrete and scientific targeting…
And pause to remember the 52 aircrew – all volunteers - who died and the thousands of civilians, POWs and forced labourers who also perished during the attack and in the aftermath.
One comment, however: Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur ‘Bomber’ Harris, as CinC Bomber Command, according to the article above, was dismissive of the effects of the raid. I have Sir Arthur Harris’s ‘Bomber Offensive’ in my office; quite the contrary – he stresses the impact on canal navigation and industrial production as a result of the raid and explains why there weren’t follow-up attacks. He also wrote his book at the end of the war, when UPKEEP – the ‘bouncing bomb’ - was still on the Secret list.
Thanks for the anecdote re Bomber Harris, wuh. Perhaps now that his old lags are properly commemorated, after too many years by far, it might be time to restore his reputation amongst his own Service if nowhere else. The pride that the Royal Air Force has rightly expressed since WW2 over the subject exploits of this thread was not similarly expressed over those of Main Force, when almost every night was one of Maximum Effort.
I am the first to concede that it is like comparing an Épée to a Cudgel, but both had their uses and in this case one purpose, to win the war as quickly as possible.
I am the first to concede that it is like comparing an Épée to a Cudgel, but both had their uses and in this case one purpose, to win the war as quickly as possible.