Here it comes: Syria
As a very-ex-Superpower we have to deal with reality, not fantasy.
Support is not just missiles on target though is it.
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Seriously, well done to those involved and one hopes everyone arrived home and continues to arrive home safely from any continuing operations.
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“Enormous level of support..?” Come on, we know US isn’t short of airframes and could easily have deployed another four -or forty of your own. But that’s hardly the point. In terms of mandate, a coordinated strike by three of five perm Security Council members plays enormously better that a solo act.
A really good point. The aircraft which has been and still is the go to attack jet for well over 35 years is being retired simply on lack of funds grounds. I struggle to understand why we are doing so when Italy will continue to operate Tornado until 2027, Germany until 2030 at least and Saudi Arabia for many years to come. The RAF must have plenty of spares from the RTP programme so as to maintain GR4 until F35 becomes fully operational.
Yes I know that Typhoon is scheduled to take over Tornado roles at the end of this year. But that will leave the RAF totally reliant on Typhoon alone and without the same recce capabilities.
This must be the stupidest decision and one I am sure we will regret...
Yes I know that Typhoon is scheduled to take over Tornado roles at the end of this year. But that will leave the RAF totally reliant on Typhoon alone and without the same recce capabilities.
This must be the stupidest decision and one I am sure we will regret...
The aircraft which has been and still is the go to attack jet for well over 35 years is being retired simply on lack of funds grounds. I struggle to understand why we are doing so
Mothballing Tornado wouldn’t work either as the engineers would still be needed for anti-det maintenance.
Why not set it up as a reserve squadron or two? I’m sure there would be enough volunteers/manpower to run it on the cheap? I appreciate keeping the war fighting skills of flight crew would be more difficult, though simulators would help enormously. Seems crazy to scrap all this equipment when it works fine and may be needed a year or so down the line.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
One word: manpower. The RAF and Navy are both struggling with their numbers caps, and the stove-piping of single-service budgets under the Levene reforms (and the politics around Army numbers) means that the obvious solution of transferring some of the Army’s unfilled positions to the other services is not possible. The P8 and additional Typhoon squadrons promised in SDSR15 are therefore dependent upon manpower currently tied up in the Tornado Force, and so retirement of Tornado is an essential prerequisite for these important growth plans.
Mothballing Tornado wouldn’t work either as the engineers would still be needed for anti-det maintenance.
Mothballing Tornado wouldn’t work either as the engineers would still be needed for anti-det maintenance.
As they say - shame to ruin the ship for a hapeth of tar....
Pentagon Post-Strike Briefing - Assets / Results
Assets used, missile types & numbers from 3:10.
2 x B-1B fired 19 x AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (JASSM).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-158_JASSM
UK contribution 8 x Storm Shadow - Tornado GR4 + Typhoon involved.
French AF contribution 9 x SCALP (Storm Shadow) - Rafale + Mirage involved.
No missiles shot down - some ballistic SAM firings after targets hit.
Previous brief from US SecDef + Chairman JCS with UK & French Air Attaches in attendance.
2 x B-1B fired 19 x AGM-158 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (JASSM).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-158_JASSM
UK contribution 8 x Storm Shadow - Tornado GR4 + Typhoon involved.
French AF contribution 9 x SCALP (Storm Shadow) - Rafale + Mirage involved.
No missiles shot down - some ballistic SAM firings after targets hit.
Previous brief from US SecDef + Chairman JCS with UK & French Air Attaches in attendance.
Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 14th Apr 2018 at 15:55.
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Thank you ES. Confirms my point. What a ridiculous way to run the defence of one of the richest countries. I thought that the majority of the maintenance and support of Tornado was by BAE (Attac) and RR (ROCET) for the engine. Moreover with F35 so late what about the manpower that should have been working on that programme.
As they say - shame to ruin the ship for a hapeth of tar....
As they say - shame to ruin the ship for a hapeth of tar....
That said I can definitely see one of those ass-saving, last minute decisions coming to run the last ones on for an extra 6-12 months.
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Been there seen it and argued it about the Jag before.
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In the real world we have to live within politically-sustainable means. The 2010 SDSR set Tornado’s retirement at 2019 without any compensating uplift elsewhere, so a big win in 2015 was the plan for two additional Typhoon squadrons, which *are* the contingency you speak of. But they cannot be delivered while the Tornado remains in service, unless of course all the vested interests in both Houses of Parliament accept a reduction in Army manpower below 80k. Even that wouldn’t help much due to the delay while recruitment and training took place.Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to keep Tornado going. But let’s be positive and reflect that (yet again) combat aircraft have proven their political utility; we have moved a long way from the ridiculous land-centric HERRICK-era arguments that would have stripped the fast jet fleets down to UK QRA only. With any luck their airships will be able to use the recent track record to solidify the rest of the F35 buy and future combat aircraft beyond. Bravo Tornado!
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There’s no reason (other than funding) that we don’t have the biggest and bestest Air Force in the whole world. In the real world we have to live within politically-sustainable means. The 2010 SDSR set Tornado’s retirement at 2019 without any compensating uplift elsewhere, so a big win in 2015 was the plan for two additional Typhoon squadrons, which *are* the contingency you speak of. But they cannot be delivered while the Tornado remains in service, unless of course all the vested interests in both Houses of Parliament accept a reduction in Army manpower below 80k. Even that wouldn’t help much due to the delay while recruitment and training took place.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to keep Tornado going. But let’s be positive and reflect that (yet again) combat aircraft have proven their political utility; we have moved a long way from the ridiculous land-centric HERRICK-era arguments that would have stripped the fast jet fleets down to UK QRA only. With any luck their airships will be able to use the recent track record to solidify the rest of the F35 buy and future combat aircraft beyond. Bravo Tornado!
In the real world we have to live within politically-sustainable means. The 2010 SDSR set Tornado’s retirement at 2019 without any compensating uplift elsewhere, so a big win in 2015 was the plan for two additional Typhoon squadrons, which *are* the contingency you speak of. But they cannot be delivered while the Tornado remains in service, unless of course all the vested interests in both Houses of Parliament accept a reduction in Army manpower below 80k. Even that wouldn’t help much due to the delay while recruitment and training took place.Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to keep Tornado going. But let’s be positive and reflect that (yet again) combat aircraft have proven their political utility; we have moved a long way from the ridiculous land-centric HERRICK-era arguments that would have stripped the fast jet fleets down to UK QRA only. With any luck their airships will be able to use the recent track record to solidify the rest of the F35 buy and future combat aircraft beyond. Bravo Tornado!
Take the point on GR4 though, the future is F35 I agree.
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Fine - agreed - now all you have to do is convince the Great British Public to
a) pay more tax
b) cut some of their benefits (pension, bus passes, schooling, health service...
c) get re elected.............
a) pay more tax
b) cut some of their benefits (pension, bus passes, schooling, health service...
c) get re elected.............
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1) is there any point in keeping Tornado when upgraded Typhoon will carry Stormshadow and Brimstone?
2) How's the serviceability rate on Tornado, how many man-hours of maintenance vs flying hours and is it way past it's designed fatigue life ?
It's my opinion that Stormshadow and Brimstone are the only reason why Tornado wasn't scrapped years ago.
2) How's the serviceability rate on Tornado, how many man-hours of maintenance vs flying hours and is it way past it's designed fatigue life ?
It's my opinion that Stormshadow and Brimstone are the only reason why Tornado wasn't scrapped years ago.