Here it comes: Syria
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Before we give Obama or Kerry too hard a time about this it is worth reflecting that the fully justified scepticism of Congress stems directly from Iraq and its dodgy dossiers and known unknowns.
Anyone who still feels it is a simple case of goodies versus baddies really ought to read the account of Domenico Quirico, Italian journo just released from the clutches of various factions of the Free Syrian Army. They are utterly vile! Most worryingly for us, the only time he was treated with a scrap of humanity was when in the hands of Al Qaeda!
Anyone who still feels it is a simple case of goodies versus baddies really ought to read the account of Domenico Quirico, Italian journo just released from the clutches of various factions of the Free Syrian Army. They are utterly vile! Most worryingly for us, the only time he was treated with a scrap of humanity was when in the hands of Al Qaeda!
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Originally Posted by shotone
Before we give Obama or Kerry too hard a time about this it is worth reflecting that the fully justified scepticism of Congress stems directly from Iraq and its dodgy dossiers and known unknowns.
Anyone who still feels it is a simple case of goodies versus baddies really ought to read the account of Domenico Quirico, Italian journo just released from the clutches of various factions of the Free Syrian Army. They are utterly vile! Most worryingly for us, the only time he was treated with a scrap of humanity was when in the hands of Al Qaeda!
Anyone who still feels it is a simple case of goodies versus baddies really ought to read the account of Domenico Quirico, Italian journo just released from the clutches of various factions of the Free Syrian Army. They are utterly vile! Most worryingly for us, the only time he was treated with a scrap of humanity was when in the hands of Al Qaeda!
This will only ever be done if the Syrian Government forces prevail, but who is backing what side?
We all know where Russia stands and who they are supporting but why in all that is sane is America helping to train the rebel forces?
Bishops being murdered, Christian churches raised to the ground, video footage of rebels mutilating the bodies of government troops and eating their innards!!! And American forces TRAINING THEM!!!!! What has happened to our leaders? How low can we get and haven't we learnt anything from the lies and deceit of our previous governments? I fear we are best off letting the Syrians sort out their own affairs and we should be keeping our hands in our pockets (thinking of all that foreign aid we give to Syria)
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New UN report just released. Summary:
The Syrian Arab Republic is a battlefield. Its cities and towns suffer relentless shelling and sieges. Massacres are perpetrated with impunity. An untold number of Syrians have disappeared. The present report covers investigations conducted from 15 May to 15 July 2013. Its findings are based on 258 interviews and other collected evidence.
Government and pro-government forces have continued to conduct widespread attacks on the civilian population, committing murder, torture, rape and enforced disappearance as crimes against humanity. They have laid siege to neighbourhoods and subjected them to indiscriminate shelling. Government forces have committed gross violations of human rights and the war crimes of torture, hostage-taking, murder, execution without due process, rape, attacking protected objects and pillage.
Anti-government armed groups have committed war crimes, including murder, execution without due process, torture, hostage-taking and attacking protected objects. They have besieged and indiscriminately shelled civilian neighbourhoods.
Anti-government and Kurdish armed groups have recruited and used child soldiers in hostilities.
The perpetrators of these violations and crimes, on all sides, act in defiance of international law. They do not fear accountability. Referral to justice is imperative.
There is no military solution to this conflict. Those who supply arms create but an illusion of victory. A political solution founded upon tenets of the Geneva communiqué is the only path to peace.
The Syrian Arab Republic is a battlefield. Its cities and towns suffer relentless shelling and sieges. Massacres are perpetrated with impunity. An untold number of Syrians have disappeared. The present report covers investigations conducted from 15 May to 15 July 2013. Its findings are based on 258 interviews and other collected evidence.
Government and pro-government forces have continued to conduct widespread attacks on the civilian population, committing murder, torture, rape and enforced disappearance as crimes against humanity. They have laid siege to neighbourhoods and subjected them to indiscriminate shelling. Government forces have committed gross violations of human rights and the war crimes of torture, hostage-taking, murder, execution without due process, rape, attacking protected objects and pillage.
Anti-government armed groups have committed war crimes, including murder, execution without due process, torture, hostage-taking and attacking protected objects. They have besieged and indiscriminately shelled civilian neighbourhoods.
Anti-government and Kurdish armed groups have recruited and used child soldiers in hostilities.
The perpetrators of these violations and crimes, on all sides, act in defiance of international law. They do not fear accountability. Referral to justice is imperative.
There is no military solution to this conflict. Those who supply arms create but an illusion of victory. A political solution founded upon tenets of the Geneva communiqué is the only path to peace.
Get the Syrians to move well away from the Sarin storage areas.
Let the Americans into bomb the sh1t out of the facilities.
The US gets it's airstrikes, the Sarin is disposed of and there's minimal collateral damage!
I'm being sarcastic by the way...
Current suggestions seem to be that the `handover' of the CWs would have to be a ground based third party collection and destruction of said weapons.
So - who would protect the collectors eh?
Might require boots on the ground!!
Pathetic, just pathetic.
Let the Americans into bomb the sh1t out of the facilities.
The US gets it's airstrikes, the Sarin is disposed of and there's minimal collateral damage!
I'm being sarcastic by the way...
Current suggestions seem to be that the `handover' of the CWs would have to be a ground based third party collection and destruction of said weapons.
So - who would protect the collectors eh?
Might require boots on the ground!!
Pathetic, just pathetic.
Last edited by tartare; 11th Sep 2013 at 09:35.
Soon all the world's T-72s will be smoking hulks.
There will be a good scrap metal business to be had after Assad loses and the subsequent civil war is over.
This is a numbers game. There are few Alawites and lots of Sunnis.
Already Assad is using lots of foreign fighters. He would be finished already if it wasn't for Hezbollah and the Iranians.
Ironically his propaganda always goes on about the rebels being foreigners when he uses many times the number.
There will be a good scrap metal business to be had after Assad loses and the subsequent civil war is over.
This is a numbers game. There are few Alawites and lots of Sunnis.
Already Assad is using lots of foreign fighters. He would be finished already if it wasn't for Hezbollah and the Iranians.
Ironically his propaganda always goes on about the rebels being foreigners when he uses many times the number.
Syria was a secular society before this "uprising" by a small minority - how can you be so sure that a majority of Syrians aren't/weren't happy with the status quo. After all they had freedom of religion, education, healthcare and a reasonable standard of living under Assad. Maybe they look at what happened in Iraq and Libya and decided that the devil you know......
The west have backed the wrong side on this one, just as we did in Egypt and Libya, and all based on the illusion of democracy. Maybe democracy, like most creeds/cultures/empires, has had its day.
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I have noticed something interesting in recent photos and video from Syria.
While the images show devastated buildings, ruins etc etc, I notice that all the debris has been swept from the streets and look better swept and in better condition than many in peaceful UK.
Someone is cleaning the streets
While the images show devastated buildings, ruins etc etc, I notice that all the debris has been swept from the streets and look better swept and in better condition than many in peaceful UK.
Someone is cleaning the streets
Sure they will... how long will it take? And all of it?
They couldn't even leave a couple of UN inspectors alone - yet they're going to:
a) allow some kind of third party in to drive around and collect it or
destroy it?
b) bring it all to a border somewhere and hand it over?
a) allow some kind of third party in to drive around and collect it or
destroy it?
b) bring it all to a border somewhere and hand it over?
And all in the middle of a vicious civil war.
What's the plan here?
That too.
But on the bright side, something has started.
If it took a threat of blowing stuff up to get a process started, however imperfect, maybe all of this noise was worth it.
And, maybe it's all a load of noise to no good end.
Syria was a secular society before this "uprising" by a small minority - how can you be so sure that a majority of Syrians aren't/weren't happy with the status quo.
The protests suggest they were not. The demonstrations preceded the civil war. Civil war seems to have been a sequel to government overreaction to the protests over a variety of domestic issues, to include water allocation.
After all they had freedom of religion, education, healthcare and a reasonable standard of living under Assad. Maybe they look at what happened in Iraq and Libya and decided that the devil you know.
The protests suggest they were not. The demonstrations preceded the civil war. Civil war seems to have been a sequel to government overreaction to the protests over a variety of domestic issues, to include water allocation.
After all they had freedom of religion, education, healthcare and a reasonable standard of living under Assad. Maybe they look at what happened in Iraq and Libya and decided that the devil you know.
No idea, but it's not as though intrigue and dirty dealing in that part of the world is rare.
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947) So he lost the election and made the following observation: "They have a perfect right to kick me out. That is democracy".
Until the leaders of the Arab World, and idiots like Hugo Chavez (may he rot in the grave) take that same attitude, a lot of the world won't have democracy.
Eclectic:
From the UN summary
A political solution founded upon tenets of the Geneva communiqué is the only path to peace.
glojo:
And American forces TRAINING THEM
YOU are leaping to a conclusion there.
That said, I suspect that some of the Gulf Allies (Saudis, Qatar) America has are arming and funding no few of the unsavory scumbags in Syria. Turkey may also be doing the same.
Old news, really. Saudi Arabia has been a source of Islamist / Mujahadeen funding for decades.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 11th Sep 2013 at 12:34.
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Just like I predicted: REUTERS: Putin says Syria chemical weapons handover will only work if US rejects use of force.
Conditions, conditions, conditions.
Putin and Assad have no good intentions, just narrow self interest. They are playing the West.
And the elephant in the room is Iran. With Obama a dead duck the road is clear for the mad mullahs to go nuclear. Which they would be very happy to use.
btw Assad has about 1,000 tons of chemical agents and Sarin has a lethal concentration for 1 minute exposure of 0.1 to 0.07 mg per human. So he can kill everyone on planet earth several times over.
Conditions, conditions, conditions.
Putin and Assad have no good intentions, just narrow self interest. They are playing the West.
And the elephant in the room is Iran. With Obama a dead duck the road is clear for the mad mullahs to go nuclear. Which they would be very happy to use.
btw Assad has about 1,000 tons of chemical agents and Sarin has a lethal concentration for 1 minute exposure of 0.1 to 0.07 mg per human. So he can kill everyone on planet earth several times over.
On second thoughts: elephants in the room, dead ducks and mad mullahs maybe you could copy for the Daily Mail or the Sun
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It appears that Putin will dictate the terms of any UN Security Council Resolution calling for the collection and destruction of chemical weapons in Syria. I guess we have no real option but to accept and trust that Russia’s terms for collecting and destroying those chemical weapons will succeed.
Middle East Live reports:
“Russia is working on an effective, concrete plan for putting Syria’s chemical weapons under international control and is discussing the details with Damascus, according to the latest announcement from its foreign minister Sergei Lavrov. Lavrov also told reporters the plan would be presented to other nations soon .”
Russia’s Foreign Minister is quoted as saying that after Russia and Syria work out the details of their chemical weapons offer they will then be ready to finalize the plan together with UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW).
The Russian draft resolution will certainly be interesting to see, and time is certainly of the essence whilst those chemical weapons are not under international control.
Bob C
Middle East Live reports:
“Russia is working on an effective, concrete plan for putting Syria’s chemical weapons under international control and is discussing the details with Damascus, according to the latest announcement from its foreign minister Sergei Lavrov. Lavrov also told reporters the plan would be presented to other nations soon .”
Russia’s Foreign Minister is quoted as saying that after Russia and Syria work out the details of their chemical weapons offer they will then be ready to finalize the plan together with UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW).
The Russian draft resolution will certainly be interesting to see, and time is certainly of the essence whilst those chemical weapons are not under international control.
Bob C
Progress, or smoke screen?
Let's check back in a few weeks and see what's what.
Let's check back in a few weeks and see what's what.
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Lonewolf -there seems to be more than wispers of US Special Forces carrying out training of combatants in Jordan. With the confirmation of lethal and non lethal aid being supplied it seems by far the most logical way for them to get the weapons.
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Lonewolf
Re training, i read it as the CIA was doing the training.
"The CIA is already training some Syrian rebels in Jordan"
Re training, i read it as the CIA was doing the training.
"The CIA is already training some Syrian rebels in Jordan"
It appears that Putin will dictate the terms of any UN Security Council Resolution calling for the collection and destruction of chemical weapons in Syria. I guess we have no real option but to accept and trust that Russia’s terms for collecting and destroying those chemical weapons will succeed.
If it takes ridding Syria of CW in order to achieve the latter Putin will push Assad to not endanger that even if it takes eliminating those Chemical Wepaons, possibly also promising supply of conventional weapons as a compensation.
You can be sure Putin has his priorities set clear and firm. In that regard he's quite predictable.
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Tough call.
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At least this time it seems decmocracy has stopped Governments from waging a war on false assumptions/reasons.
What makes Democracy look weak sometimes is its strength on the other Hand.
And that is what makes it attractive in the longer run.
That said this optimism applies only for Non-Religiously fanatic societies including even Russia or China.
In the ME I'm less optimistic in the short and medium term. And any attempt to enforce it won't work.
