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Here it comes: Syria

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Here it comes: Syria

Old 4th Sep 2013, 19:50
  #1101 (permalink)  
 
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Re the Red Line.

I just read a US newspaper.

Obama says that the International Community made the Red Line when
they declared CW abhorrent and made a treaty and Congress declared a Red Line when they ratified the treaty.

Talk about trying to spread the blame !!!
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 20:04
  #1102 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 500N View Post
Re the Red Line.

I just read a US newspaper.

Obama says that the International Community made the Red Line when
they declared CW abhorrent and made a treaty and Congress declared a Red Line when they ratified the treaty.

Talk about trying to spread the blame !!!
500:
I think it's an illustration of the level of contempt in which he holds the public. He thinks people are dumb enough to buy this line.

Given how he got nominated, elected, and re-elected, maybe his contempt is well founded.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 4th Sep 2013 at 20:05.
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 20:10
  #1103 (permalink)  
 
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Al-Qaeda Linked Syrian Rebels Attack Christian Village
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 20:15
  #1104 (permalink)  
 
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Lonewolf

I agree.
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 20:29
  #1105 (permalink)  
 
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Nutloose,

"However things turn out I am truly glad this Country is out of it and that another vote will not take place.. And as for us being kicked out of meetings, so what, live with it."

Totally agree with you. I look forward to seeing how little being "out of it" might shock people into seeing that the "special" relationship may have been a bit exaggerated, or only special for British PMs.

Smudge

Last edited by smujsmith; 4th Sep 2013 at 20:30.
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 20:34
  #1106 (permalink)  
 
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"special" relationship"

When the US wants it to be. The rest of the time, fcuk the UK,
we'll do whatever we want regardless of history, law etc.

Falklands being a good recent example.

"And as for us being kicked out of meetings, so what, live with it."

The US will still come up with the same solution, regardless
of British military officers being involved.
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 20:48
  #1107 (permalink)  
 
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I'm 2500 km from home right now and I just bought fuel containers to get me home. They will be filled as soon as Congress votes yes to attacking Syria.

To the jingoists and warmongers here, please understand that you have my complete contempt. This is potentially a " guns of August" moment and stupid, Lilly livered twits like you can't see it.

As a much wiser correspondent said about bombing Syria: "there are much more things that can go wrong with this idea than things that can go right".
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 20:55
  #1108 (permalink)  
 
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Won't be good PR for Obama or Hollander if there are lots of dead civilians from missile strikes.
Far be it from me to play the cynic but dead civilians can be made dead during the actual attack or afterwards for the benefit of the cameras... What's the betting there will be piles of bodies that we can't quite feel how warm they are from the horrific pictures?
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 20:57
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Broadsword:

How counterfactual.
T's better to stay quiet and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt. Congratulations, you made believers of everyone with that comment.
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 20:59
  #1110 (permalink)  
 
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AA

You can be sure of it !!!

The bodies are already frozen, ready to be delivered !
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 21:11
  #1111 (permalink)  
 
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The bodies are already frozen, ready to be delivered !
Some probably even have residual traces of gas in their tissue, just to be sure that the "Obama Drops Gas Bombs on Syria" is the first headline ...
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 21:41
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Hmmm, even if it may be a bit simplistic, do you really think there is not some truth to it?
Simplistic and disingenuous. It is an attempt at distraction by those who wish to divert attention from punishing the most horrendous breach of international law in recent history.

It is rather like arguing that Op Desert Fox (which, in terms of scale and planned effect, is probably the best recent comparison to what is proposed here) had the object, above all else, of helping radical Islamists.

Of course al-Qaeda (just one of an array of armed opposition groups operating in Syria) may benefit from a weakening of Assad's forces, but that is not the object here. Indeed, it makes it even more important that any military campaign should be calibrated so that it punishes the regime without precipitating its immediate downfall.

Of course there are uncertainties, but if you cannot stomach uncertainties, then why bother having Armed Forces at all?
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 21:43
  #1113 (permalink)  
 
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I'm thinking this falls into the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" category. Whatever happens, we will see the thousands killed by " western unjustified aggression", all will be women and children, and none will be regime members. If they don't bomb, we are already hearing noises off (Saudi, UAE and Qatari) saying they must do it. I heard a piece on TV last night explaining that from a Saudi/UAE/Qatar position, US tomahawks arriving in Damascus would push the price of oil up hugely. Now, if that's the case the logic says (to me anyway), oil price increases, governments (USA, British, French et al) tax take increases. In the UK of course the energy companies will use this to hike their prices further. Leading to even more tax for governments. All I see is that an Attack on Syria looks good for western governments tax income, not so good for the public. That seems to fit the current reality vis a vis political attitude vs public opinion.

Smudge
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 21:44
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Indeed, it makes it even more important that any military campaign should be calibrated so that it punishes the regime without precipitating its immediate downfall.
Can you give me some examples of operations that did just that, and what effect they had on said regimes?

Clinton's example of missile lobbing here and there (Desert Fox included air strikes IIRC) had the sum total effect of .. not much.
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 21:57
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Can you give me some examples of operations that did just that, and what effect they had on said regimes?

Clinton's example of missile lobbing here and there (Desert Fox included air strikes IIRC) had the sum total effect of .. not much.
I'm not aware air strikes have been ruled out.
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 22:01
  #1116 (permalink)  
 
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Air strikes, missiles, it's just a method of delivery.

Does it matter of a B52 drops a missile or it is fired from a ship ?
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 22:02
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Broadsword:

Simplistic and disingenuous. It is an attempt at distraction by those who wish to divert attention from punishing the most horrendous breach of international law in recent history.
Your arguments are worse than "disingenuous"... It is against international law to target civilians, (though how you manage that in a civil war I'm at a loss), but around 10 times the number have died by conventional means that died by unconventional ones but I didn't see you bleating then... I suppose, in your mind, it's ok to shred a few civvies and their kids with shrapnel yet leave them alive or maybe your preference is the horrendous burns inflicted on the same. Either way we heard bugger all from you about it over the last 2 1/2 years... Funny how thay outrage works eh?

Like Egypt and Libya, sometimes having a dictator in place that is either pro your country's interests or at least scared to get into conflict with you is better for them, better for their people and better for the region. As we have seen in Egypt and Libya when the dictator is simply removed the vacuum is usually filled by the group you least wanted, the people really don't need and the region detests...

You keep going in that silly, weak, socialist utopia of yours. The rest of us would prefer that you take yourself off to the quiet corner for a long time...
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 22:13
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So Secretary Kerry is now saying that the US cost of military action will be paid for by Arabs.........................So now US Military is GCC's Bitch and just a load of Mercaneries sold to highest bidder.

Can Kerry get much worse ?
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 22:21
  #1119 (permalink)  
 
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I am totally diabused of the stupid assed notion Wars are about sending messages, firing shots across the bow, diminishing the military of a nation, leveling the playing field between two warring parties, acting as warning to a Third Nation, reminding Despots of International Accords, and all this other crap the Lefties, Liberals, Progressive Ding Dongs keep running out to justify the use of their nation's or some other nation's military when they think it is the cool thing to do.

War is a simple concept and has exactly one singular purpose.....to kick your opponents ass until he is either dead, rendered incapable or unwilling to resist. You do that by the use of unlimited, unrestrained violence, mayhem, and destruction of his People, Resources, Assets, belongings, and motivation.

Every time we do other than that.....we lose.

If the dummies in Washington vote to attack Syria....then we should go at it Hammer and Tongs....and see just how many of them we can kill, wound, and maim.....destroy every bit of their infrastructure, government, economy, and just plain lay waste to as much of the Country we can.

We do that....thumb our nose at the rest of the World....tell them if they don't like it....we got plenty of Nukes laying around idle that we can light off in their neighborhoods.

If the Arabs want to pay us to be Mercenaries then lets take their money and when we finish with their enemies....we turn on them and do them in too.

Way too much talk folks.....lets just roll up our sleeves and get after it!


The problem really is that War is not fought these days as Wars have been fought in the past. We somehow think War can be limited, humane, nice neat and orderly.

Sadly, it cannot. It is a terrible business that once started for whatever reasons given....it always takes unintended paths and escapes from the cage we had hoped to keep it contained inside.

This thing in Syria is going to turn ugly if we do what the Obama Administration wants us to do.

Nothing good shall come of this.....Nothing.

You Nimrods that are all for this.....I pity you as you simply lack any commonsense.

So please....stop bothering us with the rant we "must" do something about those who were gassed. That was their bad luck....as horrible as it was....but their being murdered by their own government does not require "Us" to do anything.

We should punish Assad and his Regime for that horrible atrocity....and all the other atrocities that have been committed....but likewise the Insurgents do not have clean hands either.....so we should hold them accountable exactly as we do the Syrian Government.

Let the UN form a War Crimes Commission....start gathering evidence....at some point one side or the other will win....peace of sorts will take hold....then the UN can investigate, arrest, and put on Trial....those who are culpable of War Crimes.

Going to War is not the way to handle this.
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 22:26
  #1120 (permalink)  
 
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SAS:

so we should hold them accountable exactly as we do the Syrian Government
So... Really... You're just recommending nuking the whole damned place...

I can live with that and it sends the right message to the rest of them...
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