Here it comes: Syria
I'm not arguing for or against involvement, but your remark does make me wonder. I see that sentiment stated around here a lot these days. I would love that our boys and girls didn't have to be put in harm's way, but that is rather what they're for. WWI & WWII were total messes, the Falklands, GW1, GW2, NI, etc. The fact that there might be loss of life in a military action is probably not always the prime reason for not going. When our seniors faught the Nazis, the decission was taken (partly, at least) on the basis that the bad guys were wrong and we were obliged to try to stop them.
So this "total mess" (which I fully agree it is) and our potential military involvement there will need to be decided upon other criteria. That's not to say we shouldn't weigh up the possible losses - Charge of the Light Brigade springs to mind, Little Big Horn, etc.
That said, I too hope we don't have to face yet another senseless loss of life for the wrong reasons.
So this "total mess" (which I fully agree it is) and our potential military involvement there will need to be decided upon other criteria. That's not to say we shouldn't weigh up the possible losses - Charge of the Light Brigade springs to mind, Little Big Horn, etc.
That said, I too hope we don't have to face yet another senseless loss of life for the wrong reasons.
This conflict has no real impact on the UK, and may indeed cause internal security difficulties as we have seen in the past. If there was a strategic importance, then I'd go with the idea of intervention but as there isn't this is one to sit out.
The oath I swore at Cranwell was for the protection of the Queen and Country, anything else has to be very carefully thought out, planned for and most importantly an exit strategy and post conflict reconstruction where required, not just kick the door in and think 'wtf do we do now' as happened in Iraq. I have no problem in deploying forces, but what is the objective and outcome envisaged not just giving politicians a warm fuzzy feeling at being big and hard, invariably it's not their blood and treasure being lost.
Last edited by air pig; 25th Aug 2013 at 12:48.
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@ air pig
I have never said that we should use Tomahawks. Just that we are likely to.
We shouldn't do anything, leave them to fight to a standstill. But Obama committed USA with his "red line" and the UK is his closest ally. So we will probably launch a handful of Trafalgar SLCMs on co-ordinates provided by the USA and with them providing us with replacements FOC.
If you go back to the beginning of this thread you will see that my position has been consistent. You will also see that we are in total agreement.
Meanwhile: AFP: Hollande says 'body of evidence' shows Damascus 'responsible' for chemical attacks: https://mobile.mmedia.me/lb/en/Newes...emical-attacks
Another factor. When Obama attacks Syria will Assad retaliate by launching his considerable rocket force against Israel?
I have never said that we should use Tomahawks. Just that we are likely to.
We shouldn't do anything, leave them to fight to a standstill. But Obama committed USA with his "red line" and the UK is his closest ally. So we will probably launch a handful of Trafalgar SLCMs on co-ordinates provided by the USA and with them providing us with replacements FOC.
If you go back to the beginning of this thread you will see that my position has been consistent. You will also see that we are in total agreement.
Meanwhile: AFP: Hollande says 'body of evidence' shows Damascus 'responsible' for chemical attacks: https://mobile.mmedia.me/lb/en/Newes...emical-attacks
Another factor. When Obama attacks Syria will Assad retaliate by launching his considerable rocket force against Israel?
Last edited by Eclectic; 25th Aug 2013 at 14:06.
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Quote:-
Game on
Looks like it's finally time for Assad to get some Tomahawk lovin'.
Good luck boys and girls - get some.
At the risk of sounding like a chickenhawk - previous posters who say it aint our problem need to have another look at the pictures of poison gassed kids.
Tally ho...
Eclectic
From your previous post above, I got the distinct impression you were advocating the use of Tomahawks and that our forces should be used.
Game on
Looks like it's finally time for Assad to get some Tomahawk lovin'.
Good luck boys and girls - get some.
At the risk of sounding like a chickenhawk - previous posters who say it aint our problem need to have another look at the pictures of poison gassed kids.
Tally ho...
Eclectic
From your previous post above, I got the distinct impression you were advocating the use of Tomahawks and that our forces should be used.
[QUOTE]@ air pig
I have never said that we should use Tomahawks. Just that we are likely to.
We shouldn't do anything, leave them to fight to a standstill. But Obama committed USA with his "red line" and the UK is his closest ally. So we will probably launch a handful of Trafalgar SLCMs on co-ordinates provided by the USA and with them providing us with replacements FOC.
If you go back to the beginning of this thread you will see that my position has been consistent. You will also see that we are in total agreement.
Meanwhile: AFP: Hollande says 'body of evidence' shows Damascus 'responsible' for chemical attacks: https://mobile.mmedia.me/lb/en/Newes...emical-attacks
Another factor. When Obama attacks Syria will Assad retaliate by launching his considerable rocket force against Israel? ][/QUOTE
You make very valid points, sometimes politicians should just shut up and say nothing as they are frequently hoisted by there own petards. If Assad does attack Israel even with conventional weapons the Israeli's will strike and strike hard, if CW is involved then all bets will be off. I suspect that he Israeli's will see it as an attempt at state sponsored genocide and attack with some small but powerful nuclear weapons. Obama needs to be cognascent of this and go and read his history before even thinking of authorising missile/air strikes and its after effects.
We have to wait until the UN have investigated and seen their results. The so called international community is calling for action and as usual the UK/US and this time France are stepping forward as its policeman. It would be good if others did the job instead of the usual countries who then suffer a backlash due their actions. Oh and a last point, we can't afford it !!
I have never said that we should use Tomahawks. Just that we are likely to.
We shouldn't do anything, leave them to fight to a standstill. But Obama committed USA with his "red line" and the UK is his closest ally. So we will probably launch a handful of Trafalgar SLCMs on co-ordinates provided by the USA and with them providing us with replacements FOC.
If you go back to the beginning of this thread you will see that my position has been consistent. You will also see that we are in total agreement.
Meanwhile: AFP: Hollande says 'body of evidence' shows Damascus 'responsible' for chemical attacks: https://mobile.mmedia.me/lb/en/Newes...emical-attacks
Another factor. When Obama attacks Syria will Assad retaliate by launching his considerable rocket force against Israel? ][/QUOTE
You make very valid points, sometimes politicians should just shut up and say nothing as they are frequently hoisted by there own petards. If Assad does attack Israel even with conventional weapons the Israeli's will strike and strike hard, if CW is involved then all bets will be off. I suspect that he Israeli's will see it as an attempt at state sponsored genocide and attack with some small but powerful nuclear weapons. Obama needs to be cognascent of this and go and read his history before even thinking of authorising missile/air strikes and its after effects.
We have to wait until the UN have investigated and seen their results. The so called international community is calling for action and as usual the UK/US and this time France are stepping forward as its policeman. It would be good if others did the job instead of the usual countries who then suffer a backlash due their actions. Oh and a last point, we can't afford it !!
Last edited by air pig; 25th Aug 2013 at 15:19.
Quote:-
Game on
Looks like it's finally time for Assad to get some Tomahawk lovin'.
Good luck boys and girls - get some.
At the risk of sounding like a chickenhawk - previous posters who say it aint our problem need to have another look at the pictures of poison gassed kids.
Tally ho...
Eclectic
From your previous post above, I got the distinct impression you were advocating the use of Tomahawks and that our forces should be used.
Game on
Looks like it's finally time for Assad to get some Tomahawk lovin'.
Good luck boys and girls - get some.
At the risk of sounding like a chickenhawk - previous posters who say it aint our problem need to have another look at the pictures of poison gassed kids.
Tally ho...
Eclectic
From your previous post above, I got the distinct impression you were advocating the use of Tomahawks and that our forces should be used.
Or are you suggesting @tartare = @eclectic?
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Well spotted Henra
Apologies Eclectic, I meant Tartare!!
Must be the result of mixing EFES and red wine.
Apologies Eclectic, I meant Tartare!!
Must be the result of mixing EFES and red wine.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Syria agrees to allow UN access but US says move is ‘too late’
Western-Mid East military action prepared for Syria. Israel, Jordan, Turkey face up to Syrian counter-attack. Russia on war alert
June: Sarin in Syrian Crowd Control Munitions?
Western-Mid East military action prepared for Syria. Israel, Jordan, Turkey face up to Syrian counter-attack. Russia on war alert
The potency of the agent released appears very low with a 10% mortality rather 85 - 90% you would expect with Sarin. This leads me to believe that this is 'bath tub Sarin' rather than industrially made.
Air Pig,
Re Post 421, I quite agree. And I think you make my point quite well in that the decission to involve or ignore was based on factors other that people getting hurt. Where we go with Syria, who knows?
I do not what our people in harms way for the wrong reasons, all I'm saying is that the modern aversity to mil ops based purely on the possibility of casualties is not how decissions should be made.
As for "no real impact on the UK", everything is global these days and there are terrible wrongs being done in Syria.
I fully take your point about the actions I mentioned. Again, just examples of places we went for reasons other than head count.
Re Post 421, I quite agree. And I think you make my point quite well in that the decission to involve or ignore was based on factors other that people getting hurt. Where we go with Syria, who knows?
I do not what our people in harms way for the wrong reasons, all I'm saying is that the modern aversity to mil ops based purely on the possibility of casualties is not how decissions should be made.
As for "no real impact on the UK", everything is global these days and there are terrible wrongs being done in Syria.
I fully take your point about the actions I mentioned. Again, just examples of places we went for reasons other than head count.
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I think the 10% sarin mortality rate was from those making hospital alive.
Very many were killed and didn't make hospital.
Highly graphic *WARNING* video of some that didn't make hospital: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2r7hUwAxxc
Photographs and analysis of the actual chemical weapons used: Preliminary analysis of alleged CW munitions used in Syria | The Rogue Adventurer
Very many were killed and didn't make hospital.
Highly graphic *WARNING* video of some that didn't make hospital: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2r7hUwAxxc
Photographs and analysis of the actual chemical weapons used: Preliminary analysis of alleged CW munitions used in Syria | The Rogue Adventurer
Courtney is exactly right.
Wars are messy, there's never been anything clinical about them.
But when do you make a call.
Limited ingress for cruise missiles?
Then how come the Operation Orchard managed to get a couple of Sufas and F15s past the Syrian air defence network to take out the reactor, and that was a couple of years ago?
If the spams decide they're going to act, I wonder will the air defence network will prove just as effective now as it did then.
BFB - let me see if I am understanding you correctly.
I am a civilian.
I have never served - and have always been open about that fact in posts here.
There is nothing worse than a walt.
Yet I do have an interest in, and moderately detailed knowledge of intel, politics, aircraft and have spent a little time in Israel as well, shortly after the beginning of the second Intifada (I am a gentile by the way).
Therefore I have no right to express an opinion in this forum?
I think you need to read what I've posted a little more carefully - and please don't try and use that tired old trope of `if you're such a man, go and join them.'
I wasn't advocating putting you and your kin in harms way.
I was saying use cruise missiles - which appears to be exactly what is going to happen.
Edit - the story is moving fast see this NY Times report.
Monkey - that is - quite a video!
Wars are messy, there's never been anything clinical about them.
But when do you make a call.
Limited ingress for cruise missiles?
Then how come the Operation Orchard managed to get a couple of Sufas and F15s past the Syrian air defence network to take out the reactor, and that was a couple of years ago?
If the spams decide they're going to act, I wonder will the air defence network will prove just as effective now as it did then.
BFB - let me see if I am understanding you correctly.
I am a civilian.
I have never served - and have always been open about that fact in posts here.
There is nothing worse than a walt.
Yet I do have an interest in, and moderately detailed knowledge of intel, politics, aircraft and have spent a little time in Israel as well, shortly after the beginning of the second Intifada (I am a gentile by the way).
Therefore I have no right to express an opinion in this forum?
I think you need to read what I've posted a little more carefully - and please don't try and use that tired old trope of `if you're such a man, go and join them.'
I wasn't advocating putting you and your kin in harms way.
I was saying use cruise missiles - which appears to be exactly what is going to happen.
Edit - the story is moving fast see this NY Times report.
Monkey - that is - quite a video!
Last edited by tartare; 26th Aug 2013 at 02:15.
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What if it wasn't Assad's lot who released the chemicals?
We've heard from Hague and Obama that there will be 'consequences' if they did.
What if - just if - the rebels used chemicals against their own people hoping to blame Assad? (It would certainly look good, given that there were UN Chemical experts in the area.)
After all, martyrs are martyrs and (as far as the revels are concerned) "It's a just cause".
Do you think Hague and Obama would take out the rebels?
It does appear that Sarin may have been used. But who used it? - Surely it is incumbent on those who retaliate to determine beyond reasonable doubt who used it before they even consider any form of military response?
We've heard from Hague and Obama that there will be 'consequences' if they did.
What if - just if - the rebels used chemicals against their own people hoping to blame Assad? (It would certainly look good, given that there were UN Chemical experts in the area.)
After all, martyrs are martyrs and (as far as the revels are concerned) "It's a just cause".
Do you think Hague and Obama would take out the rebels?
It does appear that Sarin may have been used. But who used it? - Surely it is incumbent on those who retaliate to determine beyond reasonable doubt who used it before they even consider any form of military response?
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No more alu snack bars from this lot either...
Delta Hotel.
Click the link at the top...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6c5_1377374025
Delta Hotel.
Click the link at the top...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6c5_1377374025
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BBC News - Syria crisis: Diplomacy has not worked, says William Hague
If this leads where we all think it is going, please please please have a desired end state.
If this leads where we all think it is going, please please please have a desired end state.
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Re the videos, Su-24MK and Su-22M4 use KAB-500KR TV guided bomb or KAB-500L laser guided bomb.
Re chemical weapons. Syria has one of the world's largest stockpiles. Assad has been using them regularly against the rebels since 19 March this year, without the world doing anything.
This latest horrendous event in Damascus was exacerbated because the civilian population were still in place and because people were sleeping on the ground floor to avoid the dangers from artillery on the upper floors.
Since the attack there has been a sharp increase in the rate of supply of munitions to the rebels with many hundreds of tons crossing the border from Turkey.
There is no good thing that we can do. There is not even a best thing that we can do. Any action that we do or don't take will result in disaster.
Even helping the Kurds in the north resist the genocidal attacks from al Nusra would be opposed by our NATO allies, the Turks.
Re chemical weapons. Syria has one of the world's largest stockpiles. Assad has been using them regularly against the rebels since 19 March this year, without the world doing anything.
This latest horrendous event in Damascus was exacerbated because the civilian population were still in place and because people were sleeping on the ground floor to avoid the dangers from artillery on the upper floors.
Since the attack there has been a sharp increase in the rate of supply of munitions to the rebels with many hundreds of tons crossing the border from Turkey.
There is no good thing that we can do. There is not even a best thing that we can do. Any action that we do or don't take will result in disaster.
Even helping the Kurds in the north resist the genocidal attacks from al Nusra would be opposed by our NATO allies, the Turks.
Last edited by Eclectic; 26th Aug 2013 at 08:35.
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Assad has been using them regularly against the rebels since 19 March this year, without the world doing anything.
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Alemaobiano
And of course those nice, friendly, rule & fairness-adhering chaps in Al Qaeda PLC. wouldn't dream of using Bio-Chemical weapons on an area of secularist Syrian civilians would they?
Knowing that the gullible, soft-handed, spineless political apparatchiks of the liberalist western democracies would fall for such a trick.
Syria is not our war.
And of course those nice, friendly, rule & fairness-adhering chaps in Al Qaeda PLC. wouldn't dream of using Bio-Chemical weapons on an area of secularist Syrian civilians would they?
Knowing that the gullible, soft-handed, spineless political apparatchiks of the liberalist western democracies would fall for such a trick.
Syria is not our war.
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@ alemaobaiano
Go to YouTube.
Type in Syria Gas
Arrange results in date order. Then go back to before the current attacks and you find videos like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCYZKiw10jk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B1ChYAdcws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jqh74v9QpuU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed19qlsh-Mw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHwmjCRDZAw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLPmmfg_oYA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BYbC-Y0y5k
Plus more.
Here is helicopter delivery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oUFi79VAUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZZr-nmB0do
But there is little doubt about both sides using chemical weapons. The regime have far more supplies so have been using it more.
Go to YouTube.
Type in Syria Gas
Arrange results in date order. Then go back to before the current attacks and you find videos like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCYZKiw10jk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B1ChYAdcws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jqh74v9QpuU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed19qlsh-Mw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHwmjCRDZAw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLPmmfg_oYA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BYbC-Y0y5k
Plus more.
Here is helicopter delivery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oUFi79VAUA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZZr-nmB0do
But there is little doubt about both sides using chemical weapons. The regime have far more supplies so have been using it more.
Last edited by Eclectic; 26th Aug 2013 at 09:56.
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If it is proven that the Syrian government used chemical weapons in this case, then I believe we should take action. Not necessarily action to remove the government from power, but tactical strikes on stores of chemical weapons and any facilities used to direct their deployment.
I hear a lot of people saying "it's not our war" and such like, but I disagree. Irrespective of the difficulties such situations pose (and they are many, whichever action you take), ultimately we are facing a humanitarian crisis that we may have the technology to stop. Where innocent children are being slaughtered in the most excruciating and heinous fashion, I believe it is the responsibility of everyone with a moral compass to do whatever they can to make it stop. It's not the same as Iraq or any of our other recent mistakes; this is about saving lives that are being lost, not speculation on potential threats or a venture to acquire oil. If ever there was a purpose for having the UN, this is it.
I hear a lot of people saying "it's not our war" and such like, but I disagree. Irrespective of the difficulties such situations pose (and they are many, whichever action you take), ultimately we are facing a humanitarian crisis that we may have the technology to stop. Where innocent children are being slaughtered in the most excruciating and heinous fashion, I believe it is the responsibility of everyone with a moral compass to do whatever they can to make it stop. It's not the same as Iraq or any of our other recent mistakes; this is about saving lives that are being lost, not speculation on potential threats or a venture to acquire oil. If ever there was a purpose for having the UN, this is it.
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looks like its going to happen, Syria: PM Cuts Holiday To Discuss 'Attack'