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Here it comes: Syria

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Here it comes: Syria

Old 14th Apr 2018, 18:43
  #2261 (permalink)  
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JTO, wreapon/target matching? Cost? Political demonstration rather than military effect?
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 18:50
  #2262 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by air pig View Post
Support is not just missiles on target though is it.
Absolutely. From what I could see from various online tracking sites, significant numbers of RAF MRTT tankers, Typhoons and other aircraft like the R1 Sentinel were active in theater at the time of the attack. It is surprising to me that they weren't mentioned in the initial MoD news release.

It almost seemed like the MoD release about the four Tornados was meant to minimize UK participation to appease critics back home. Of course, now that the attack is being heralded as a success, hopefully more UK assets will bask in the glory.

The UK's unflinching loyalty to America in times of military need is always appreciated.

The Med was full of the 100th ARW Quid tankers from Mildenhall last night, both KC-135's and some visiting KC-10's. And perhaps a couple of those planes were not tankers but working with a borrowed callsign as in past events.

Bravo Zulu to all on a job well done.
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 18:58
  #2263 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Just This Once... View Post
Given the relative proximity I am slightly surprised that the GR4s only carried 2 missiles each, rather than the maximum of 4 (presuming the clearances are in place).
Come-on JTO, I think you know some of the variables. What surprises me, a little, is the reference to Typhoon and M2 involvement as "protection". Now, do I understand that Fighter "protection" of "bombers" is de-rigeuer or, is this an overkill, esp with SO weapons?
Beyond that, well done to all who risked their necks.

OAP
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 19:04
  #2264 (permalink)  
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Now, do I understand that Fighter "protection" of "bombers" is de-rigeuer or, is this an overkill, esp with SO weapons?
Better to have it, and not need it; than need it, and not have it.
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 19:36
  #2265 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Better to have it, and not need it; than need it, and not have it.
Quite so. However, although the whole situation here is specific to the circumstances, I get the feeling that the "Fighter" component would be pretty much as vulnerable to the hi-tech Russian missile air defences (if used) as the "Bombers" themselves. Interesting. If the Russian air defence assets had been used, I can see the Fighter escort acting to dilute kill probability (soaking up the shots), engaging opposing Fighters in air combat as escort or HVAA protection.
Very interesting, esp when you consider the concept of Ops for the two new UK carriers, supposedly operating without land based support but, needing 5th Gen capabilities!

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Old 14th Apr 2018, 19:46
  #2266 (permalink)  
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As reported the airspace was jam packed with aircraft - including tankers, C4I, SEAD, EW and doubtless many CSAR/MV-22 etc. I am sure the Typhoons were on CAP, just not necessarily to protect the GR4s.

I suspect Nicosia ATCC turned off their radar and went home.....
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 20:01
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Demonstration at Akrotiri Main Gate expected at noon tomorrow (Sunday)
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 20:03
  #2268 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Onceapilot View Post
Come-on JTO, I think you know some of the variables. What surprises me, a little, is the reference to Typhoon and M2 involvement as "protection". Now, do I understand that Fighter "protection" of "bombers" is de-rigeuer or, is this an overkill, esp with SO weapons?
Beyond that, well done to all who risked their necks.

OAP
Typhoon was there to protect the French Mirage, in case of a hasty retreat. Ummm, I meant a ‘fighting withdrawal’.

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Old 14th Apr 2018, 20:04
  #2269 (permalink)  
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[QUOTE=ORAC;10118488]As reported the airspace was jam packed with aircraft - including tankers, C4I, SEAD, EW and doubtless many CSAR/MV-22 etc. I am sure the Typhoons were on CAP, just not necessarily to protect the GR4s.

It would seem, maybe so. In fact, I doubt that the Typhoons were directly tied to the GR4's at all?
So, going back to my comment about the forthcoming mighty carriers (2). I wonder under what circumstances they could politically operate in combat Ops (at risk of loss) without the total support of ground based assets? Politically, it will not happen.

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Old 14th Apr 2018, 20:11
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I noticed that the general giving the Pentagon briefing to the press corps failed to answer a valid question from one of the assembled members of the 4th Estate. The question was along the lines of, 'Were any of the allied aircraft painted by Russian radar?'

Other questions focused on 'deconfliction'.

I would find it difficult to believe, given that the attack was telegraphed, that the Russians had no knowledge of the attack after it was in progress.

Could it be that they were content to let this, admittedly limited, attack succeed?
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 20:40
  #2271 (permalink)  
 
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Reports starting to come in about a large explosion at an Iranian weapons depot near Aleppo after warplanes sighted in the area.

Probably coincidental.

Last edited by Airbubba; 14th Apr 2018 at 21:05.
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 20:53
  #2272 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A_Van View Post


It seems that the Syrians used everything they had in terms of AD: C-125, C-200, 1st gen of BuK and 2-3 other types of AD systems, still from the times of Soviet Union. They even do not have C-300, while they were sold to Cyprus/Greece in 90's.

I wonder what exactly the intercept ratio was (per type of missile and per type of AD complex). First announcements differ greatly and seem not trustworthy. Western leaders are just saying that the goals have been achieved, which sounds vague. Conversely, the Russian MoD gives too detailed numbers, which I doubt a lot (i.e. 71 missile intercepted of 100+ and also split is provided per attacked facility/airbase):
https://function.mil.ru/news_page/[email protected]

It's in Russian but autotranslation should work...
The Russian Ministry of Defence played the same game during 2017 with the cruise missile strike on Shayrat airbase, Syria. The claim then was that 23 out of 59 were shot down. The question is why do the Russian Ministry of Defence play these silly games with ridiculous claims? Saying that I guess I really know the answer that propaganda must take priority.

See reply to the Shayrat claims later in the post.

The US analysis is that the Syrians were completely taken by surprise during last nights strike and only launched after the targets had been hit.

McKenzie: "Syria fired 40 surface to air missiles into the air after strike on ballistic (unguided trajectory) to no effect....after the 105 US and allied missiles had already landed."
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...ria-airstrikes

You can see from satellite imagery that there was more than 23 hits at Shayrat. US General Joseph Votel briefed at the time that 57 out of the 59 cruise missiles struck their targets.

April 7, 2017

ISI FIRST TO ANALYZE SHAYRAT AIRFIELD MISSILE ATTACK

Based on very high resolution imagery captured less than 10 hours after the attack, ISI presents in depth battle damage assessment

ISI very high resolution satellite imagery was able to reveal the results of the Tomahawk cruise missiles attack on the Al-Shayrat Air Base. According to ISI experts, the total of 44 targets hit. Several targets may have hit twice.

An in-depth examination of the damage to the objectives shows that 13 double hardened aircraft shelters (HAS) got 23 hits. 5 workshops got hit. The workshops are not necessarily related to WMD, but to aircraft and their ability to do maintenance and fly.

Ten ammunition storages got hit. Seven fuel reservoirs of the AFB got hit at two sites with eight hits total. Two locations remain untouched. One SA6 Battery utterly destroyed along with its radars and control systems. In total, five SA6 Battery elements hit.

The results show that the target hits were accurate and that the Tomahawks have been used effectively against quality targets. Although 58 missiles hit the base, it seems that the overall damage to the base is limited because the warhead of the Tomahawk is not considered large and weighs about 450 kg.
Satellite imagery analysis at following link.

ISI first to analyze Shayrat airfield missile attack - ISI
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 21:04
  #2273 (permalink)  
 
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A couple of initial reports on the explosion(s) south of Aleppo, perhaps in Azan:

Explosion heard in government-controlled area south of Aleppo- monitor

by Reuters
Saturday, 14 April 2018 19:48 GMT

BEIRUT, April 14 (Reuters) - A huge blast was heard in a Syrian government-controlled area in a rural region south of Aleppo, the Britain-based war monitor The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said on Saturday.

The Observatory said the cause of the explosion was unknown, as well as its target.
Explosion heard in government-controlled area south of ...

Syrian media: Explosions at Iranian base near Aleppo

By JPOST.COM STAFF
04/14/2018

An Iranian military base in Syria was targeted by unidentified aircraft Saturday night, Syrian media is reporting.

The Iranian base, located in the Jabal Azzan region south of Aleppo, is the largest in the country. Eyewitnesses are reported to have observed explosions and flames at the site.

Other unconfirmed sources have identified the planes as Israeli fighter jets.
Syrian media: Explosions at Iranian base near Aleppo
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 21:20
  #2274 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by recceguy View Post
You will notice that US commanders and President Trump now list France before UK,
They know how to spell fcuk, and firetruck, so why does that surprise you?
Originally Posted by larssnowpharter View Post
I noticed that the general giving the Pentagon briefing to the press corps failed to answer a valid question from one of the assembled members of the 4th Estate. The question was along the lines of, 'Were any of the allied aircraft painted by Russian radar?'
That was actually a stupid question by that journo, lars. One might as well ask "do birds crap on your car?" The general was right to ignore that idiot.
Originally Posted by JPJP
Typhoon was there to protect the French Mirage, in case of a hasty retreat. Ummm, I meant a ‘fighting withdrawal’.
I was unaware that a Mirage had a reverse gear.

@Airbubba
Hezbollah media sources denied the reports and said that the explosions at the site resulted from explosives detonating within the warehouse.
Anybody can have an ordnance handling problem. I am puzzled at why the Syrians blamed that on an air strike.
Let's examine a few cases:
1. Israelis in invisible aircraft attack the base
2. Some people on that base get frantic orders, after Friday's strikes, to move some stuff from X to Y and a few people screw up an ordnance handling procedure.
3. Rogue American (or British, or French, etc) pilots take off and attack the base with no orders from above.

I'll bet on 2, with two plus decades of time in service to inform my guess.
Maybe I put a side bet on 1 if the IDF thought they could sneak one in while the world was in a tizzy over the cruise missile strikes.
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 21:56
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Originally Posted by JPJP View Post
Typhoon was there to protect the French Mirage, in case of a hasty retreat. Ummm, I meant a ‘fighting withdrawal’.

Where's the cock emo when you need it
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Old 14th Apr 2018, 22:25
  #2276 (permalink)  
 
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Salute!

I love that question about friendly airraft being painted by radar. Love it.

Up to me I would have told the "reporter" nope, they didn't even know we were there until the bombs and missiles hit........ next question.
++++++

Over at Tyler's blog, lotta tweets and intell being updated at good intervals:

The War Zone - The Drive
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gotta tellya, that looking at one of the targets destruction, that Allies must have super warheads if the Syrians shot down most of the missiles. I saw the long video from Syrian "Ministry of Truth", and only saw one "hit" by a Syrian missile and plenty of launches.

If they used SA-6 systems, or a more modern version that used doppler for guidance on the missile, then they should have engaged and shot down many cruise missiles.

Our Israeli students in the only group IAF sent had a vet or two from the Yom Kippur episode. They were fighter/attack pilots checking out in the Viper, circa mid to late 1980. The SA-6 was a beast and they said you could not get low enuf to defeat it. Nevertheless, they found two ways to defeat the thing and I employed one in the mid 80's at Red Flag to escape and hit the tgt. The easiest way was to taxi a tank up to the sucker and blow it to kingdom come. The other eay was to "beam" it, then get closer and blow it up yourself.

Bear in mind that the SA-6 shot down our F-117 in the Balkans. It may be old, but the sucker works. The biggie is the integration of the air defense system to pass on the tgt to the missile battery and so forth. I flew against the best IAD the world has seen, and it was not in the mideast.. The Vee had plenty of practice, as we flew hundreds of missions up north. I shudder to think of what our losses would have been if they had the SA-6 for the low folks and the SA-4 for the initial folks heading in.

Oh well, I just pray we won't let this thing escalate.

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Old 14th Apr 2018, 22:27
  #2277 (permalink)  
 
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Israel raids Syrian air base

When the Syrian Arab Air Force T4 air base at Tiyas (near the city of Homs) came under attack before dawn on 9 April, Syria’s state TV immediately accused the United States of carrying out the attack. It was initially assumed that it had been mounted in retaliation for the widely reported chemical weapons attack two days earlier in Douma in the Eastern Ghouta region, the last rebel-held enclave in the vicinity of Damascus.

This was perhaps understandable. After a chemical weapons attack on the rebel-held town of Khan Sheikhoun in April 2017, the US fired 59 Tomahawk cruise missiles at a Syrian military air base at Shayrat, which had been used to launch that attack.

Even on the day of the attack against Tiyas, after US and French denials of responsibility, Syria and Russia were soon blaming Israel for the attack. Rather than being a US response to the alleged chemical weapons attack, the air raid was thus part of a wider Israeli effort to counter and contain the Iranian military build-up in Syria. It was not even the first IDF/AF attack against the air base at Tiyas, which has been a particular irritant to Israel.

Israeli sources have said that Tiyas air base incorporates an Iranian military/Revolutionary Guard/Quds facility, and have alleged that the base has been used by Iranian forces to transfer advanced weapons to its Lebanese ally, the Shia militant group Hezbollah.

Tiyas is also believed to have been the launch site for the Iranian drone that made an incursion into Israel in the early hours of 10 February, prompting an IDF/AF attack on what was described as the “command-and-control centre from which Iran had launched the drone, at a Syrian air base near Palmyra.” An Israeli F-16I Sufa was shot down by heavy Syrian anti-aircraft fire, crashing in Northern Israel en route back to its base. Both crew ejected safely.

This was said to be the first Israeli combat aircraft lost to hostile fire in decades.

The weapons used during this attack (and a succession of follow up attacks) were said to have been Israel Military Industries (IMI) Delilah loitering air-launched cruise missiles, launched by ‪Israel Defence Force/Air Force F-16I Sufa and F-15I Ra’am tactical fighters. These 412-lb weapons have a 66-lb warhead and a 160 nautical mile range, compared to the heavier but shorter-ranged Rafael Popeye.‬

Initial reports suggested that about 20 missiles landed in and around T4, hitting and damaging the ‘maintenance section’ and other areas, destroying a number of drones and causing casualties among Syrian air force and Iranian personnel. It was claimed that the Syrian defences had shot down eight missiles (out of 20 or 28 fired).

Subsequently, estimates as to the size of the raid were scaled back. The Russian Defence Ministry said that two Israeli F-15s had carried out a guided missile air strike on Tiyas air base, launching eight missiles from Lebanese air space in the early hours of Monday, 9 April. Moscow and Damascus claimed that Syrian defences had shot down five of the eight missiles fired, the remaining three hitting the western part of the base – which is understood to be the Iranian enclave.

14 people were killed in the attack, and the Iranian Tasnim news agency said that seven Iranian military personnel had been killed. The Fars news agency said that three of the dead had been members of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, though this report was subsequently withdrawn without explanation.

Less than a week later, the US, UK and France mounted co-ordinated air strikes against Syrian targets in direct retaliation for the attack on Douma.
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 00:07
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As reported the airspace was jam packed with aircraft - including tankers, C4I, SEAD, EW and doubtless many CSAR/MV-22 etc.
Sumb'dy had to provide cheese sandwiches for les Rafales et les Mirages, especially for the ones who appear to be reaching for the FBH.
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 01:23
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Old 15th Apr 2018, 01:43
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They mustabin guilty.

We've got the photos to prove it and evryfink!

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