You know you have become a third rate Air Force when....
Roland,
So 4 deaths at Deepcut don't count then? If the Ofsted inspections prevent one reoccurrence then they will have been useful. And that's completely in addition to the accreditation issues that gr4techie identifies.
So 4 deaths at Deepcut don't count then? If the Ofsted inspections prevent one reoccurrence then they will have been useful. And that's completely in addition to the accreditation issues that gr4techie identifies.
Thread Starter
RLE
No, I am afraid they don't count. Deepcut was not a good part of our history, but there have been some dramatic and, some may say, well over the top action plans as a result of Deepcut. Just because one training unit had an issue, all of the others, which had no issues, have been made to implement OTT regulations. I am afraid that bringing OFSTED in will just result in another level of unnecessary bureaucracy. This comes from the OFSTED website:
Alarm bells should be going off with the first line of this statement. You see "we" have pretty good assessment systems of our own and lots of our own experts. We have STANEVALs, CFS, FOST, CGS etc. We have been doing a pretty good job of training people to be pilots, engineers, adminers, soldiers, sailors etc etc for some considerable time. We always get the latest fad dumped on us "best practice" and we forget that there is such a thing as "military best practice".
We have been pretty good at doing what we do for nearly 100 years (in the RAF's case) and longer in the case of the RN and British Army. We shouldn't be afraid of external comment, but we shouldn't be too quick to throw out good practice because some external consultant with no understanding of our ethos, tradition and techniques makes an observation in a report. We got IiP forced upon us and we dumped it again after a few years. I leave you with this comment from an IiP assessor, in the hope that one day excessive bureaucracy is the first thing that goes a "savings measure": "Actually we recommended that the whole RAF be accredited as a single entity, rather than unit by unit, but that wasn't allowed."
No, I am afraid they don't count. Deepcut was not a good part of our history, but there have been some dramatic and, some may say, well over the top action plans as a result of Deepcut. Just because one training unit had an issue, all of the others, which had no issues, have been made to implement OTT regulations. I am afraid that bringing OFSTED in will just result in another level of unnecessary bureaucracy. This comes from the OFSTED website:
Our specialist inspectors are experts in the type of service they inspect. When they carry out an inspection, be it of a children’s home, a nursery, a school, a college, or a local authority, they focus on the quality of the service for individual children, young people or older learners. During an inspection, inspectors collect first-hand evidence based on the practice they observe and what they learn from the people using the service. They use this evidence and other information available to make their professional judgements which we publish in inspection reports.
We have been pretty good at doing what we do for nearly 100 years (in the RAF's case) and longer in the case of the RN and British Army. We shouldn't be afraid of external comment, but we shouldn't be too quick to throw out good practice because some external consultant with no understanding of our ethos, tradition and techniques makes an observation in a report. We got IiP forced upon us and we dumped it again after a few years. I leave you with this comment from an IiP assessor, in the hope that one day excessive bureaucracy is the first thing that goes a "savings measure": "Actually we recommended that the whole RAF be accredited as a single entity, rather than unit by unit, but that wasn't allowed."
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RP, before you wax lyrical about RAF training it is worth reading the ALI inspection from 2005 and the subsequent re-inspection of 2006.
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8-15fromOdium it may be my setup but the links to the reports wouldn't work. Any chance you could re post. Cheers.
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Ignore my last, working now
Last edited by TomJoad; 9th Oct 2013 at 20:21.
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Interesting read, but the first report didn't produce anything startling. It didn't say we were bad, just not as good as they thought we might be - with regard to work place NVQs. Now I don't know and I haven't got the time to research it when work place NVQs were introduced. I'm guessing, from what I have found, it was around the same time or just after IiP came in, which would make it the early 2000s. If that is so, then it is perhaps not surprising that it took a few years to bed in. It would also not be surprising the "leadership and management" weren't very good, faced with any new initiative it takes time for the deliverers of training to be trained in the new initiative - but generally we don't do this!
I thought this bit was brilliant though:
The Report did make me chuckle when the Adult Learning Inspectorate used "recruit training squadron" several times. I was always taught that proper titles were capitalised as in Recruit Training Squadron - so I guess we aren't all perfect! 
Interesting read, but the first report didn't produce anything startling. It didn't say we were bad, just not as good as they thought we might be - with regard to work place NVQs. Now I don't know and I haven't got the time to research it when work place NVQs were introduced. I'm guessing, from what I have found, it was around the same time or just after IiP came in, which would make it the early 2000s. If that is so, then it is perhaps not surprising that it took a few years to bed in. It would also not be surprising the "leadership and management" weren't very good, faced with any new initiative it takes time for the deliverers of training to be trained in the new initiative - but generally we don't do this!
I thought this bit was brilliant though:
WHAT LEARNERS THINK THE ROYAL AIR FORCE COULD IMPROVE:
the amount of time available on the squadron and during operations by getting rid of the distance learning Didn't we introduce distance learning to stop people from having to attend courses away from home base?
the teaching methods - there are too many computerised presentations and they are boring Wasn't CBT introduced as the future of teaching (and of course reduced the number of instructors you needed)?
the amount of practical experience - reintroduce two-weeks' practical experience on an operational station during phase 2 training Taken as a savings measure?
the time available to work on portfolios after joining operational stations Time management is a skill that needs to be learnt
the recognition of previous qualifications
the quality of the food in the mess at RAF Cosford Welcome to the modern RAF and PAYD
the NVQ system - make it more flexible, there's no time on first-line work Is that within "our" control?
the readability of the paperwork and books for the NVQs
the amount of information about what we will do when we leave RAF Cosford
get rid of key skills, why do we have to do them? because they are key skills?
stop having parades at weekends Welcome to the military
stop treating women better than men Welcome to the modern world of EO - as highlighted in the reports
the amount of time available on the squadron and during operations by getting rid of the distance learning Didn't we introduce distance learning to stop people from having to attend courses away from home base?
the teaching methods - there are too many computerised presentations and they are boring Wasn't CBT introduced as the future of teaching (and of course reduced the number of instructors you needed)?
the amount of practical experience - reintroduce two-weeks' practical experience on an operational station during phase 2 training Taken as a savings measure?
the time available to work on portfolios after joining operational stations Time management is a skill that needs to be learnt
the recognition of previous qualifications
the quality of the food in the mess at RAF Cosford Welcome to the modern RAF and PAYD
the NVQ system - make it more flexible, there's no time on first-line work Is that within "our" control?
the readability of the paperwork and books for the NVQs
the amount of information about what we will do when we leave RAF Cosford
get rid of key skills, why do we have to do them? because they are key skills?
stop having parades at weekends Welcome to the military
stop treating women better than men Welcome to the modern world of EO - as highlighted in the reports
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 10th Oct 2013 at 09:56. Reason: spolling
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. Following induction, learners complete an intensive period of trade training lasting 22 weeks for the RAF Police and 20 weeks for the RAF Regiment. They are assessed for some of the key skills, the technical certificate and NVQ units during this phase. The remainder of the apprenticeship is completed when learners are posted to operational units throughout the RAF, and assessed in the workplace. Progress reviews are at 12-weekly intervals.
Last edited by NutLoose; 10th Oct 2013 at 10:00.
When "fun" is a dirty word, but "in" words include:
Stakeholder
Delta (and I don't mean a wing shape)
Underpinning
Followership
Passport (and I don't mean the one you use to travel around the world)
etc...
I'm sure you can all add your own favourites to the list!
Stakeholder
Delta (and I don't mean a wing shape)
Underpinning
Followership
Passport (and I don't mean the one you use to travel around the world)
etc...
I'm sure you can all add your own favourites to the list!
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Last edited by TomJoad; 10th Oct 2013 at 21:17.
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" Ah the much lauded RAF Apprenticeship scheme. 3 years at Halton learning a whole load of crap you would never encounter in your RAF service career"
Really ?...the R.A.F Apprenticeship scheme was recognised as being one of the best in the UK for the depth and quality of the engineers it produced over the years.
I will agree that some of the content was irrelevant, but overall, the syllabus proved it's worth many times over in the R.A.F and as a civilian.
Most, if not all, of the crap was associated with the BS / synchronised walking and associated bolleaux seen as being somehow integral to becoming an engineer.
Really ?...the R.A.F Apprenticeship scheme was recognised as being one of the best in the UK for the depth and quality of the engineers it produced over the years.
I will agree that some of the content was irrelevant, but overall, the syllabus proved it's worth many times over in the R.A.F and as a civilian.
Most, if not all, of the crap was associated with the BS / synchronised walking and associated bolleaux seen as being somehow integral to becoming an engineer.
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By whom? Like all self-proclaimed acclimations the problem is that if you say it often enough it becomes received wisdom and hides the truth. In terms of the integrity of what was taught and the product it delivered the old apprenticeship scheme had much merit. It was blindly obvious however that by the 90s that the scheme was no longer fit for purpose. The training performance standard far exceeded the operational performance standard required by units. The syllabi of the courses was replete with outdated technologies and a "deliver all to everyone" philosophy which saw propulsion and airframe technicians sit through endless hours of piston engine or rotary aircraft theory irrespective of their future career paths. Nor does that RAF operate in isolation. The civilian market was moving towards a revised apprenticeship model, offering a shorter path to qualified status and associated pay benefits. The old apprenticeship was definitely showing its age, it was simply not attractive to potential recruits, was too long and too costly.
Last edited by TomJoad; 11th Oct 2013 at 11:39.
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I knew it was a third rate Air Force when:
I had to travel to Europe to investigate a harassment complaint (that in itself may have been enough for some people, but I actually believe that the system is basically a good one) and was out of pocket for my trouble. I worked 12 hour days, did not touch a beer and scrounged all my cups of tea from the section that I was working in. After 3 days I came home and was about 30 euros down. Not a great amount in the big scheme of things, but am I the only one that believes if the RAF send you somewhere it shouldn't cost you unless you choose to spend your money in the bar etc? I had to have an internet connection to carry on working into the evening (couldn't claim) and had the basic choice in the PAYD facility. With the demise of IE the trip cost me, as unfortunately most of my trips have since about 2009 or so apart from OOA.
I believe that the lost capability etc previously mentioned is far more important - but much of the criticism in the thread was about management concentrating on the minutiae, but unfortunately even that is only with regard to some selected areas of the minutiae rather than what matters to the troops.
I believe that the lost capability etc previously mentioned is far more important - but much of the criticism in the thread was about management concentrating on the minutiae, but unfortunately even that is only with regard to some selected areas of the minutiae rather than what matters to the troops.
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Originally Posted by Educated Armourer
but much of the criticism in the thread was about management
The reason you have a third rate Air Force.....
The RAF has an identity crisis.
Senior 'leaders' have been beguiled by industry buzzwords and concepts and insist on adopting civilian practices. The way of life within the military has been slowly been eroded, and the guys and gals now have 'a job', which in itself suggests some kind of transactional arrangement.
The last SDSR and the following redundancies and erosion of T & C's underline the fact that the military now offers a 'warfighting' job with civilian* benefits.
To top it all, whenever anyone questions any of the newly adopted 'core values' they are scoffed at [especially on here] and told they are in the military and to get on with it.
Can nobody else see the dichotomy here, and why the guys and gals spend much of their time frowning these days?
It's no wonder they are leaving - apart from anything else, they are confused.
* civilian as in not particularly suited to military lifestyle and subject to change at a moments notice.
Senior 'leaders' have been beguiled by industry buzzwords and concepts and insist on adopting civilian practices. The way of life within the military has been slowly been eroded, and the guys and gals now have 'a job', which in itself suggests some kind of transactional arrangement.
The last SDSR and the following redundancies and erosion of T & C's underline the fact that the military now offers a 'warfighting' job with civilian* benefits.
To top it all, whenever anyone questions any of the newly adopted 'core values' they are scoffed at [especially on here] and told they are in the military and to get on with it.
Can nobody else see the dichotomy here, and why the guys and gals spend much of their time frowning these days?
It's no wonder they are leaving - apart from anything else, they are confused.
* civilian as in not particularly suited to military lifestyle and subject to change at a moments notice.
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The syllabi of the courses was replete with outdated technologies and a "deliver all to everyone" philosophy which saw propulsion and airframe technicians sit through endless hours of piston engine or rotary aircraft theory irrespective of their future career paths.
And how are you going to foresee their future career paths? I take it you would use a ouija board.
When I left training to go on to helicopters I couldn't foresee a tour on fighters nor VC10.
Also you do not know until the end how many have survived the course to post, or on what or where they are going.
You would also then need three training courses running as opposed to one, unless you went on say a rotary course when posted onto them, but I cannot see anyone running a course simply for the odd person posted onto a Sqn.
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You know you have become a third rate Air Force when.... one and an arf freds sticking out the top of a nut consumes so much intellectual thought and discussion on an intaweb forum.
Goodness knows how we are going to manage when these new wiz jets that can go up and down at the speed of sound need fixing.
Goodness knows how we are going to manage when these new wiz jets that can go up and down at the speed of sound need fixing.
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I'm sure its because of modern apprenticeships etc. The RAF is doing civilian accredited training.
Why are businesses doing a modern apprenticeship? Because they receive payment of the Government for doing so. Some businesses only see modern apprenticeships as cheap labour. Often the qualification is worthless outside that company. For example, in aircraft engineering is the NVQ the RAF dishes out worth anything in civilian aviation? Not like a JAR66 licence.
Why are businesses doing a modern apprenticeship? Because they receive payment of the Government for doing so. Some businesses only see modern apprenticeships as cheap labour. Often the qualification is worthless outside that company. For example, in aircraft engineering is the NVQ the RAF dishes out worth anything in civilian aviation? Not like a JAR66 licence.
As an old salty dog**** **I was surprised at the lack of in depth knowledge shown by those who had passed their p66b2 tick test. Take the calculations required to determine the internal resistance of an aircraft battery---you wot they said
Dumbed down to ****!!
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Gladrag, I don't know if it's been mentioned already. But what worries me is there's a few low quality AMM's (to put it politely) returning to Cosford for their fitter course and I haven't heard a single one get booted off the course, regardless of how many exams they fail. Is it now an attendance course to get the numbers through?