RPAS Pilots Awarded Wings
A lot of the anti-drone thing in the UK is a linking of 'our' drones which (I understand) operate effectively in the CAS role in much the same way as a manned ac does, with the CIA/Obama-approved targeted assassinations which currently happen in various countries around the Middle East. The legality/morality of this is dubious at best and undoubtedly causes collateral damage (death of bystanders).
Perhaps MoD PR needs to be more aggressive in its explanation of this particular weapons system.
Perhaps MoD PR needs to be more aggressive in its explanation of this particular weapons system.
www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/drone-pilots-reaper-photo-essay?ico=home^editors_choice
I wonder how we (RAF) intend to manage the expectation of RPAS crews?
I wonder how we (RAF) intend to manage the expectation of RPAS crews?
Last edited by Could be the last?; 22nd Jun 2013 at 14:26.
In terms of newly-qualified Fg(RPASP) officers, I don't now. I think the current level of overwork experienced by the Reaper Force is tied to the relentless HERRICK tasking and UOR manning levels (if some US guys feel underworked, I'm sure some of 39/XIII would welcome some exchangees 
), so I presume the Force will change markedly in 2015.
I do know of someone (a "normal" pilot) who wanted to move on but was extended for a year to cover the period out to the end of support for HERRICK. Other than that, there seem to be plenty of people popping up at OCUs over the RAF fresh from a Reaper tour without being kept on that fleet.
), so I presume the Force will change markedly in 2015.I do know of someone (a "normal" pilot) who wanted to move on but was extended for a year to cover the period out to the end of support for HERRICK. Other than that, there seem to be plenty of people popping up at OCUs over the RAF fresh from a Reaper tour without being kept on that fleet.
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"..........and heard Great Argument
About it and about, but ever I came
Out by that same Door wherein I went"
These chaps are highly trained and motivated, and they do an important and necessary job, and all honour to them, say I. But they are not "Pilots" (in the sense in which the word has always been understood) by any stretch of the imagination. (Even a Marine Pilot must do his job on the ship's bridge).
By all means let them have a distinguishing badge. But the one chosen deceives, and is intended to deceive.
D.
About it and about, but ever I came
Out by that same Door wherein I went"
These chaps are highly trained and motivated, and they do an important and necessary job, and all honour to them, say I. But they are not "Pilots" (in the sense in which the word has always been understood) by any stretch of the imagination. (Even a Marine Pilot must do his job on the ship's bridge).
By all means let them have a distinguishing badge. But the one chosen deceives, and is intended to deceive.
D.
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5 Forward 6 Back,
Yes, and it demands exactly as much skill as if the chap were actually in it.
But he ain't in it - that's the point. Imagine if MOL decided to cut cost by having his 737s flown by a "pilot" in an office on the ground. How many seats would Ryanair sell ?
I'm afraid this is one of those questions where there'll always be two opinions, and we'll have to agree to differ (perhaps I'm an old fuddy-duddy ?)
Cheers, Danny.
Yes, and it demands exactly as much skill as if the chap were actually in it.
But he ain't in it - that's the point. Imagine if MOL decided to cut cost by having his 737s flown by a "pilot" in an office on the ground. How many seats would Ryanair sell ?
I'm afraid this is one of those questions where there'll always be two opinions, and we'll have to agree to differ (perhaps I'm an old fuddy-duddy ?)
Cheers, Danny.
Danny,
Fuddy Duddy ? I think not. Like you, I respect the new trade and also suggest that as they have the ability to kill, they must be afforded the respect of that status. I also believe that thanks to the likes of "The Daily Mail" and its energetic headlines, there may be a conception that our drone pilots are as "gung ho" as it seems some American operators have been. I doubt our chaps are that easily mislead, and, I like to think they are upholding the integrity of our service traditions.
Smudge
Fuddy Duddy ? I think not. Like you, I respect the new trade and also suggest that as they have the ability to kill, they must be afforded the respect of that status. I also believe that thanks to the likes of "The Daily Mail" and its energetic headlines, there may be a conception that our drone pilots are as "gung ho" as it seems some American operators have been. I doubt our chaps are that easily mislead, and, I like to think they are upholding the integrity of our service traditions.
Smudge
Last edited by smujsmith; 23rd Jun 2013 at 18:48.
there may be a conception that our drone pilots are as "gung ho" as it seems some American operators have been.
It may not surprise you that UK ROE is more restrictive than US ROE, but either way, that ROE is not set by pilots flying the aircraft - and yes they do fly the aircraft (think of it as fly by wire - it's just that the wire is 4,000 miles long!).
LJ
Who on earth ever invented the vile expression 'Kill Chain'?
Is that a purely US term, or does it also apply to the UK's drone operators?
Is that a purely US term, or does it also apply to the UK's drone operators?
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Who on earth ever invented the vile expression 'Kill Chain'?
Is that
a purely US term, or does it also apply to the UK's drone operators?
Has anyone thought of a more suitable name for this RPAS in RAF service?
Kill Chain
LJ
Wensleydale
I doubt the naming of the General Atomics 'Fluffy Woo-Woo' would make much difference!
It's Combat ISTAR or armed-ISTAR whichever way you look at it and it has saved literally thousands of Coalition Forces' lives.
LJ
I doubt the naming of the General Atomics 'Fluffy Woo-Woo' would make much difference!
It's Combat ISTAR or armed-ISTAR whichever way you look at it and it has saved literally thousands of Coalition Forces' lives.
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 24th Jun 2013 at 09:02.
LJ, yes my only mud-moving background was in the nuclear role - although we did sully ourselves in the AD F-4 world with some strafe after the S. Atlantic war....
But 'kill chain' is so typically oo-rah and offensive. Whether that applies to aircraft or drones is immaterial.
But 'kill chain' is so typically oo-rah and offensive. Whether that applies to aircraft or drones is immaterial.
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and yes they do fly the aircraft
but I wouldn't expect an AT/AAR background aircrew mate to know much about it
they are not pilots
And is a pilot on a ground tour, or one whose military flying career has ended (say, due to promotion above gp capt), not a pilot?
Probably get far more '"hands on stick time" as a percentage of each sortie than their civil airline counterparts.
Maybe, but not as much as the hosties
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When is the term Kill Chain handy ? When some random person watching your feed from half way around the world decides they know better than you what the situation is and sends you a PM while your setting up to take a shot. Clearly something that is not a problem when you're sat above the battlefield in a manned asset.
The reply to such an inject ? A simple PM back saying "Killchain". In that they are not part of it, so the conversation is over
I notice that the one's arguing over whether they are pilots are not seem to be those that have no "dog in the fight". Don't see any Reaper pilots on here justifying their existence (or flying pay!) to the PPRuNe community. Maybe they are too busy fighting a war / saving lives / to concern themselves with such things.........
Were the first pilots in the RAF accepted by their Army counterparts as "real" military officers if they weren't charging across a muddy field towards a machine gun ? What if you were a UAV operator and then returned to flying real aircraft ? Would you be allowed back into the fold or does such an assignment taint your social standing in the pilot world forever
The reply to such an inject ? A simple PM back saying "Killchain". In that they are not part of it, so the conversation is over
I notice that the one's arguing over whether they are pilots are not seem to be those that have no "dog in the fight". Don't see any Reaper pilots on here justifying their existence (or flying pay!) to the PPRuNe community. Maybe they are too busy fighting a war / saving lives / to concern themselves with such things.........
Were the first pilots in the RAF accepted by their Army counterparts as "real" military officers if they weren't charging across a muddy field towards a machine gun ? What if you were a UAV operator and then returned to flying real aircraft ? Would you be allowed back into the fold or does such an assignment taint your social standing in the pilot world forever
Last edited by FFP; 24th Jun 2013 at 13:17.
I was immersed in the Pred/Reaper program for quite a few years (including some hands-on outside of ops) and I was also a user of their capabilities on the ground and in the air. The system is going to be part of a Coalition decision making process (if you don't have the stomach for the words 'kill chain') for years to come and has been since introduction in the Balkans. Just like SIGINT, AWACS, SAR (as in Sentinel, etc...), IADS EW RADAR, Satellite, RAPTOR or even a humble targeting pod adds to this picture then Pred/Reaper has the distinct advantage of reach-back to the decision makers in real time and then carrying a weapon to prosecute that target. Furthermore, ISTAR is ever more important to achieve a positive ID with a confidence level high enough for the senior commander with Engagement Authority. I can remember screaming at the CAOC over the RT about a military aircraft we had found flying over Bosnia - the 'kill chain' took too long and by the time any instructions came out the aircraft had landed and we had to go to the tanker for more gas.
BEags - I forgot about your brief spell with the buckets of sunshine, my apologies. However, things have changed since those days with Network Centric Warfare being the way things are done (you saw this with JTIDS being put into the Vickers Funbus - incredibly useful). Furthermore, today's urban CAS against COIN targets makes PID even more of a requirement for even the smallest of weapons like Hellfire.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, our Reaper aircrew are our most experienced combat pilots having experienced the Afghan theatre 365 days a year (excluding leave); some have been on the program for over 7 years. Unless they are flying launch and recovery in theatre, then they are displaced from the combat area, but read any military doctrine in recent times and they mention that the battle-space is becoming blurred and that the enemy will not be so apparent as the past. Well in today's war in Afghanistan, the combatants on both sides may not be Afghanistan - hence we have attrocities that have happened globally in connection.
Finally, you don't have to be hand-to-hand to be a combatant. Think about Agincourt - our archers were well outside the harm of the French knights. Or submariners shooting torpedos against ships with no sub surface capability. Or the RAF during the 30s bombing the natives to keep them in check. Or an artillery battery lobbing shells at infantry 5 miles away. Using a Pred/Reaper is no different to a sniper shooting an enemy with a pistol from 1/2 a mile away.
Times are changing, the way we do our business is also changing and our enemy are changing accordingly. Live with it and accept the concept that sometimes you will have to kill them when your life is not endangered, but if you leave them on the battlefield they will soon kill someone else.
LJ
BEags - I forgot about your brief spell with the buckets of sunshine, my apologies. However, things have changed since those days with Network Centric Warfare being the way things are done (you saw this with JTIDS being put into the Vickers Funbus - incredibly useful). Furthermore, today's urban CAS against COIN targets makes PID even more of a requirement for even the smallest of weapons like Hellfire.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, our Reaper aircrew are our most experienced combat pilots having experienced the Afghan theatre 365 days a year (excluding leave); some have been on the program for over 7 years. Unless they are flying launch and recovery in theatre, then they are displaced from the combat area, but read any military doctrine in recent times and they mention that the battle-space is becoming blurred and that the enemy will not be so apparent as the past. Well in today's war in Afghanistan, the combatants on both sides may not be Afghanistan - hence we have attrocities that have happened globally in connection.
Finally, you don't have to be hand-to-hand to be a combatant. Think about Agincourt - our archers were well outside the harm of the French knights. Or submariners shooting torpedos against ships with no sub surface capability. Or the RAF during the 30s bombing the natives to keep them in check. Or an artillery battery lobbing shells at infantry 5 miles away. Using a Pred/Reaper is no different to a sniper shooting an enemy with a pistol from 1/2 a mile away.
Times are changing, the way we do our business is also changing and our enemy are changing accordingly. Live with it and accept the concept that sometimes you will have to kill them when your life is not endangered, but if you leave them on the battlefield they will soon kill someone else.
LJ