Random Alcohol Breath Testing for the RN
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
A_A, curiously the amount you suggest is feasible in the evening was not far removed from a normal lunchtime.
While Craig I think, though it could have been Sir Peter Hardup, more or less banned lunch time drinking, before that it was almost the norm for desk officers to be pie-eyed until late afternoon.
I recall one sqn ldr ops at a maritime base pre-FI who was invariably squiffy until tea time when he might start work. Or our dark blue brethren with their measured calorie controlled intake at lunchtime.
While Craig I think, though it could have been Sir Peter Hardup, more or less banned lunch time drinking, before that it was almost the norm for desk officers to be pie-eyed until late afternoon.
I recall one sqn ldr ops at a maritime base pre-FI who was invariably squiffy until tea time when he might start work. Or our dark blue brethren with their measured calorie controlled intake at lunchtime.
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The RFA have had alcohol testing for many years, in line with civilian law. I have served on many RFAs as part of a squadron and as part of the Naval embarked support (now called MASF) and it works!
The Chof can test anyone he suspects is under the influence whilst on duty and kick them off to find their own way back from wherever the ship docks next.
The rules (if applied with common sense) are fair and don’t penalise watchkeepers or daymen either way and give ample opportunity to socialise (with alcohol) even at sea.
I agree that if a person “turns to” worse for wear, they load others, undermine discipline and put lives in danger.
All that’s needed is the Naval command to “grow a set” and start applying rules that already exist about drinking on board, but in the absence of that ever happening voluntarily, a test would force their hand to punish the offender. Good!
Cheers now
The Chof can test anyone he suspects is under the influence whilst on duty and kick them off to find their own way back from wherever the ship docks next.
The rules (if applied with common sense) are fair and don’t penalise watchkeepers or daymen either way and give ample opportunity to socialise (with alcohol) even at sea.
I agree that if a person “turns to” worse for wear, they load others, undermine discipline and put lives in danger.
All that’s needed is the Naval command to “grow a set” and start applying rules that already exist about drinking on board, but in the absence of that ever happening voluntarily, a test would force their hand to punish the offender. Good!
Cheers now
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
oldgrubber, can you qualify the The Chof can test anyone he suspects is under the influence whilst on duty . . . the rules (if applied with common sense) are fair and don’t penalise watchkeepers or daymen either way and give ample opportunity to socialise (with alcohol) even at sea.
Now I read in a journal about 3 years ago that merchant ships officers were not permitted to drink while watch keeping whereas daymen were permitted a small quantity, perhaps the 2-can rule.
Can you comment on that?
Pre-Captain Calamities near miss (it were the miss that were near) with the rocks I had seen officers on cruise ships drinking wine or beer - never to excess. On my last cruise I didn't even see them with a glass to hand. Now a cruise ship rarely spends more than 10 hours in port so a no-drinking rule would have them teetotal for months at a time.
Are merchant ships' officers allowed to drink while at sea?
Now I read in a journal about 3 years ago that merchant ships officers were not permitted to drink while watch keeping whereas daymen were permitted a small quantity, perhaps the 2-can rule.
Can you comment on that?
Pre-Captain Calamities near miss (it were the miss that were near) with the rocks I had seen officers on cruise ships drinking wine or beer - never to excess. On my last cruise I didn't even see them with a glass to hand. Now a cruise ship rarely spends more than 10 hours in port so a no-drinking rule would have them teetotal for months at a time.
Are merchant ships' officers allowed to drink while at sea?
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Saddam's Love Child. Have you gone religious also. Like you I am out also, but, I don't think that you would have posted this if you were still in.
Last edited by 6nandneutral; 25th Mar 2013 at 21:19. Reason: Missed screen name
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PN,
I have to admit that my RFA time was pre the Captain Calamity saga, but we often had whole crew quiz nights, flight deck BBQs etc where I saw representatives of the whole crew enjoying "down time". There was probably a "bottle to throttle" equivalent for bridge/engineering watchkeepers. (like I said, common sense)
At the time the RFA Doctor would control and administer the tests as requested by the command when a breach was suspected.
If the merchant rules have changed again since, I am happy to be corrected.
Being ex RN I know ALL crew members on RN ships can drink (off watch) which is why I think the testing will be a positive thing.
I have to admit that my RFA time was pre the Captain Calamity saga, but we often had whole crew quiz nights, flight deck BBQs etc where I saw representatives of the whole crew enjoying "down time". There was probably a "bottle to throttle" equivalent for bridge/engineering watchkeepers. (like I said, common sense)
At the time the RFA Doctor would control and administer the tests as requested by the command when a breach was suspected.
If the merchant rules have changed again since, I am happy to be corrected.
Being ex RN I know ALL crew members on RN ships can drink (off watch) which is why I think the testing will be a positive thing.
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The USN did this last year:
Navy to place breath-test machines on all its ships - Checkpoint Washington - The Washington Post 03/06/2012
Navy to place breath-test machines on all its ships - Checkpoint Washington - The Washington Post 03/06/2012
In 1913, Navy Secretary Josephus Daniels issued a revolutionary order: no more alcohol on board ships. According to official Navy myth, sober sailors mocked their boss by nicknaming their coffee — the strongest drink still allowed on board — a “cup of Joe.” A century later, current Navy Secretary Ray Mabus is one-upping Daniels, ordering the installation of breath-test machines on all ships and submarines, as well as on Marine Corps bases. One can only imagine how he will go down in naval lore.
According to Mabus, the breath tests are not intended as a crackdown measure but rather to help identify sailors who might be struggling with booze. The alcohol testing is part of a broader new Navy program designed to improve the physical and mental well-being of those having difficulty coping with the stresses of a decade of war.
“We are not telling you not to drink, if you are old enough,” Mabus told an audience of sailors and Marines Monday afternoon aboard the USS Bataan at Naval Station Norfolk. “We are telling you that it is important to keep legal, responsible use of alcohol from turning into a problem.”
The problem generally is not that sailors are showing up blitzed to work, Mabus said in an interview. It’s that alcohol is surfacing as a factor in a host of social and professional ills that are increasingly of concern to the Navy brass: sexual assault, domestic problems, suicide, even poor physical fitness.
Mabus said the Navy has a bunch of separate programs to address each of those problems, but decided that it needed to take a more comprehensive approach. “We’ve done a lot of good and pretty effective things, but they’ve been piecemeal,” he said.
By detecting those who show up to work with a drink or two still in their system — especially on more than one occasion — the Navy will be able to intervene and offer counseling before things escalate, he said.
All ranks are vulnerable, Mabus said. He noted that 13 of 20 commanding officers recently fired by the Navy admitted afterward that drinking was a contributing factor to their problems.
----
Mabus made his announcement aboard the Bataan, an amphibious assault ship that returned last month after 322 days at sea — the longest deployment of any Navy ship in four decades.
According to Mabus, the breath tests are not intended as a crackdown measure but rather to help identify sailors who might be struggling with booze. The alcohol testing is part of a broader new Navy program designed to improve the physical and mental well-being of those having difficulty coping with the stresses of a decade of war.
“We are not telling you not to drink, if you are old enough,” Mabus told an audience of sailors and Marines Monday afternoon aboard the USS Bataan at Naval Station Norfolk. “We are telling you that it is important to keep legal, responsible use of alcohol from turning into a problem.”
The problem generally is not that sailors are showing up blitzed to work, Mabus said in an interview. It’s that alcohol is surfacing as a factor in a host of social and professional ills that are increasingly of concern to the Navy brass: sexual assault, domestic problems, suicide, even poor physical fitness.
Mabus said the Navy has a bunch of separate programs to address each of those problems, but decided that it needed to take a more comprehensive approach. “We’ve done a lot of good and pretty effective things, but they’ve been piecemeal,” he said.
By detecting those who show up to work with a drink or two still in their system — especially on more than one occasion — the Navy will be able to intervene and offer counseling before things escalate, he said.
All ranks are vulnerable, Mabus said. He noted that 13 of 20 commanding officers recently fired by the Navy admitted afterward that drinking was a contributing factor to their problems.
----
Mabus made his announcement aboard the Bataan, an amphibious assault ship that returned last month after 322 days at sea — the longest deployment of any Navy ship in four decades.
Last edited by GreenKnight121; 28th Mar 2013 at 00:09.
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Alf TG
Ref post #8.
The Astute shooting of the WEO took place because the culprit was a nutter - being over or close to the alcohol limit probably influenced his behaviour, at the time.
The trouble is that being pixxed doesn't mean you're a murderer. Breath/blood testing will uncover individuals who are over the limit whilst on duty. Well and good; they shouldn't be allowed to operate/handle potentially dangerous kit or be in a position to cause harm. But don't imagine that it is a defence against nutters.
It's just the relatively easy knee jerk reaction to an extraordinarily complex problem. It's far more difficult to understand and guard against nutters.
Rgds SOS
The Astute shooting of the WEO took place because the culprit was a nutter - being over or close to the alcohol limit probably influenced his behaviour, at the time.
The trouble is that being pixxed doesn't mean you're a murderer. Breath/blood testing will uncover individuals who are over the limit whilst on duty. Well and good; they shouldn't be allowed to operate/handle potentially dangerous kit or be in a position to cause harm. But don't imagine that it is a defence against nutters.
It's just the relatively easy knee jerk reaction to an extraordinarily complex problem. It's far more difficult to understand and guard against nutters.
Rgds SOS
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I concur with SOSL. I once deployed to Afghanistan for a month with an aircraft who was just that - a complete nutter. Not just a bit unconventional or a maverick. He was a plain old fashioned nutter & it was the most difficult problem I've ever been faced with! His behavior did get a lot worse when he was drunk but his worst crimes (and they were crimes in retrospect) took place when he was sober. He was unstable and booze only exaggerated deep set character flaws.
Needless to say when I realized what was going on I spoke to my chain of command. Predictably I was told to get back in my box as it was all just 'high spirits' until he got sent back from his next detachment 3 days in for nearly wiping out his whole aircraft and a platoon of Marines. Just like I'd told them he would!
There are just some people out there who are not wired like everyone else, they can present a problem that the system seems incapable of dealing with.
That said, it's difficult to see how this initiative isn't a good thing.
Needless to say when I realized what was going on I spoke to my chain of command. Predictably I was told to get back in my box as it was all just 'high spirits' until he got sent back from his next detachment 3 days in for nearly wiping out his whole aircraft and a platoon of Marines. Just like I'd told them he would!
There are just some people out there who are not wired like everyone else, they can present a problem that the system seems incapable of dealing with.
That said, it's difficult to see how this initiative isn't a good thing.
Last edited by Running_In; 28th Mar 2013 at 17:07.
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And I agree with you RI.
Slightly off thread but back in 197x one of the Sgts in ASF turned up for work and seemed to be a bit off balance as he walked across the hangar floor, also his speech sounded a bit strange. These effects became worse and so I asked the Flt Sgt to escort him up to the Med Centre and get one of the JMOs to sober him up.
Turned out he had MS. If we had had decent breath testing in those days he would have been spared a little hassle and no little embarrassment.
He went downhill pretty quickly and was medically discharged. The MoD pensions actuaries, in their wisdom, decided to reduce his pension drastically because he only had a very short life expectancy. Tough shxt on his wife and kids living in a house with a mortgage, which otherwise he would have been able to cover.
Sorry for thread drift but this just reminded me how angry I was.
Rgds SOS
Slightly off thread but back in 197x one of the Sgts in ASF turned up for work and seemed to be a bit off balance as he walked across the hangar floor, also his speech sounded a bit strange. These effects became worse and so I asked the Flt Sgt to escort him up to the Med Centre and get one of the JMOs to sober him up.
Turned out he had MS. If we had had decent breath testing in those days he would have been spared a little hassle and no little embarrassment.
He went downhill pretty quickly and was medically discharged. The MoD pensions actuaries, in their wisdom, decided to reduce his pension drastically because he only had a very short life expectancy. Tough shxt on his wife and kids living in a house with a mortgage, which otherwise he would have been able to cover.
Sorry for thread drift but this just reminded me how angry I was.
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 28th Mar 2013 at 18:12.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
According to Mabus, the breath tests are not intended as a crackdown measure but rather to help identify sailors who might be struggling with booze.
