617 Sqn Special Unveiling news
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"Without doubt the original members of 617 Sqdn carried out a courageous and expert piece of flying. I wonder what they would think seeing current members basking in their glory?
I speak as one who served on 617 when it re-formed with Vulcans. During a detachment to the USA we were publicly hailed as the 'Dambuster Boys'. It was most embarrassing."
Goudie
If it is that embarrassing, then why
- does 617 Squadron have a burst dam in the middle of the Squadron Crest ?
- does the current Tornado as pictured have a Dambuster Lancaster
an even bigger burst dam and the actual word "Dambuster" on the tail ?
- does the 617 Aircrew Association have Dambusters70 logo on the front page ?
I speak as one who served on 617 when it re-formed with Vulcans. During a detachment to the USA we were publicly hailed as the 'Dambuster Boys'. It was most embarrassing."
Goudie
If it is that embarrassing, then why
- does 617 Squadron have a burst dam in the middle of the Squadron Crest ?
- does the current Tornado as pictured have a Dambuster Lancaster
an even bigger burst dam and the actual word "Dambuster" on the tail ?
- does the 617 Aircrew Association have Dambusters70 logo on the front page ?
Last edited by 500N; 21st Mar 2013 at 11:21.
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You miss the point 500N. Nothing embarrassing about the logo. It depicts a historical moment in the Squadron's history
.I was proud to serve on 617. Following in their footsteps is one thing
The embarrassment was being hailed with a title, for which we were not worthy.
.I was proud to serve on 617. Following in their footsteps is one thing
The embarrassment was being hailed with a title, for which we were not worthy.
Well done 617 Sqn.
As a matter of interest the US Navy had ships named after victories over the British i.e. USS Valley Forge and I don't see those self-righeous types manning the battlements. Meanwhile don't forget Trafalgar Day, Taranto and the Spanish Armada!
As a matter of interest the US Navy had ships named after victories over the British i.e. USS Valley Forge and I don't see those self-righeous types manning the battlements. Meanwhile don't forget Trafalgar Day, Taranto and the Spanish Armada!
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Ticonderoga (2), Bunker Hill (2), Lexington (2), Saratoga (2), Cowpens (2), and many others.
All of which served beside RN ships... sometimes in the same formation.
You take pride in the achievements of your predecessors, and acknowledge the bravery and achievements of your enemies-turned-allies.
All of which served beside RN ships... sometimes in the same formation.
You take pride in the achievements of your predecessors, and acknowledge the bravery and achievements of your enemies-turned-allies.
Personally I find it easy to rationalise military honours in battle, and the bravery of individual combatants, but here we glory an attack on a series of targets that had severe or potentially severe effects on 'civilians' - So I still think that glorifying such an event from the other side would be greeted with outrage from most in this country.
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Another pic ...
Why Snow 
To mark 70 years since the formation of the Dambusters presenter Dan Snow unveiled new tail art on an RAF Tornado GR4, the aircraft flown by 617 Sqn today.
Image shows: TV Presenter Dan Snow returning from a flight in a 617 Sqn RAF Tornado.
Image shows: TV Presenter Dan Snow returning from a flight in a 617 Sqn RAF Tornado.
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Rather surprised to see a chap of Dan Snow's stature in a GR4, I'd have thought he was a might too big anthropometrically.
Have to say though that he looks a great deal more like a 'fighter pilot' than the other chap next to him! (or indeed most RAF aircrew).
Have to say though that he looks a great deal more like a 'fighter pilot' than the other chap next to him! (or indeed most RAF aircrew).
The picture shows the reality of being a fighter pilot. - On the left the big strapping pilot of TV and film, just buckle the jet on his back and he's ready for business. .... On the right, the real thing. An ordinary man laden down with charts, books and checklists.
Personally I find it easy to rationalise military honours in battle, and the bravery of individual combatants, but here we glory an attack on a series of targets that had severe or potentially severe effects on 'civilians' - So I still think that glorifying such an event from the other side would be greeted with outrage from most in this country.
It was total war - the civilians killed by 617 were acceptable collateral damage. We don't glorify the area bombing of Dresden - that is a different argument. We wouldn't expect the Luftwaffe today to glorify their raids on London and Coventry either.
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I think the amazing thing about the Tornado's paint scheme is that it has somehow made the fin look even bigger - or have they upgraded to a larger one to make the world's biggest RCS even more significant?
Nice, wonder if they asked him not to tuck his turning trousers into his boots..
Tail looks nice, I'm sure the UK's last surviving Dams raid veteran would approve.
Tail looks nice, I'm sure the UK's last surviving Dams raid veteran would approve.
Last edited by Stitchbitch; 22nd Mar 2013 at 22:53.
Revisionist history - are you David Irving by any chance?
The Dams raid, was seen as necessary and it's reasoning accepted at the time by those who sanctioned the effort. That included the full impact of hitting that target - as apart from the effect on industrial production, the immediate collateral damage would be overwhelmingly civilian. Non of the targets were in fact military, and that in my view places the raid alongside those of the area bombing campaign, and as you point out - we don't celebrate that.
Which leads me to my thoughts in the original post.
Originally Posted by AR1
Non of the targets were in fact military, and that in my view places the raid alongside those of the area bombing campaign.....
Non of the targets were in fact military
The targets of the area bombing campaigns were civilian population and logistical nodes and were a different target set to the dams. They were attacked for strategic reasons and Bomber Harris did get Churchill worried that he himself might face an international war-crimes court after the war...but hey ho we won!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Wrath, how about the Bader Wing?
Power production was on the target sets in both Bosnia and Iraq. As our present conflict is in a friendly country it follows that infrastructure is not a desirable target set.
I would agree that a dam would probably be off limits if it meant an innocent civilian population would die of thirst.
I would agree that a dam would probably be off limits if it meant an innocent civilian population would die of thirst.
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Point of Order
Have to say though that he looks a great deal more like a 'fighter pilot' than the other chap next to him! (or indeed most RAF aircrew).
......making history, not movies, or some such.