Could JHC participate in Red Flag? Cost effective?
Thread Starter
Could JHC participate in Red Flag? Cost effective?
As prepping for Heli Expo in a few weeks in Vegas, I'm pondering whether in the future the AAC Longbow fleet could participate in a future Red Flag exercise?
My reasoning of thought is since the early 90s, the USAF Fighter Weapons School have encouraged and included US Army and USMC attack helicopter assets into the various Red Flags.
Better still could the CHF and SHF force participate at all with Merlins, Lynx / Wildcat and Wokkas as well?
Perhaps even help towards cost effectiveness overall if across the state someone's running a Vortex ex with Merlins and the CHF Mk 9s, and in parallel up in casino land, theres the Tonka force plus Typhoons - why not bring all assets to one place. Still playing near realistic combat scenarios without having to spread around the areas of the southwest? Forget China Lake, or Camp P, just stick to one place.
Or combine stuff further up the way at the Top Gun / Strike school as well?
Any thoughts here?
Cheers
My reasoning of thought is since the early 90s, the USAF Fighter Weapons School have encouraged and included US Army and USMC attack helicopter assets into the various Red Flags.
Better still could the CHF and SHF force participate at all with Merlins, Lynx / Wildcat and Wokkas as well?
Perhaps even help towards cost effectiveness overall if across the state someone's running a Vortex ex with Merlins and the CHF Mk 9s, and in parallel up in casino land, theres the Tonka force plus Typhoons - why not bring all assets to one place. Still playing near realistic combat scenarios without having to spread around the areas of the southwest? Forget China Lake, or Camp P, just stick to one place.
Or combine stuff further up the way at the Top Gun / Strike school as well?
Any thoughts here?
Cheers
Last edited by chopper2004; 14th Feb 2013 at 16:11.
FYI, here is a useful resource for planned and past participants in Ex RED FLAG - this site seems to get updated from public info releases before the official Nellis AFB website.
Upcoming Red Flag Units
Apache has not participated at all in the last several years (if at all).
Upcoming Red Flag Units
Apache has not participated at all in the last several years (if at all).
You can't hardly pay the light bill at home.....where is the money going to come from?
Having done plenty of TLTs/CQWI courses over the years we've hit a brick wall wrt Flag; sometimes the aircraft are at El Centro already. When JHF(A) became part of the USMC element in Th we tried to push the 'collective trg' piece on either Flag or Desert Talon at Yuma. Answer? Resounding 'no' due to cost and LAND thinking Flag was a FJ w**k fest....
PS - enjoy HeliExpo in LV, was there for it a few years ago. Black tie dinner in the Hilton and then the Rum Jungle until early......BTW Chopper, you buying or selling?
PS - enjoy HeliExpo in LV, was there for it a few years ago. Black tie dinner in the Hilton and then the Rum Jungle until early......BTW Chopper, you buying or selling?
Yes - all modern capable assets should have the opportunity to participate in RED FLAG - notwithstanding the bean-counters' cost concerns, the benefits for all involved can be well less than the demise of a single, very expensive, aircraft and crew. But don't bin opportunities at China Lake/Camp Pendleton/ 29 Stumps/White Sands/ Eglin and all the other venues/exercises the US military offers. RED FLAG is great - but there are other ways to learn or test abilities/capabilities.
Last edited by ex-fast-jets; 14th Feb 2013 at 19:22.
Chopper 2004
No, because the Apache crews would not be able to attend the briefing at Nellis AFB as by the time they got to the 'play area' to the North of Dreamland, everyone else would be going home! They would probably need a FARP (Forward Air Refuelling Point) set out in the desert and they would never make it back to the debrief on time.
Just think about the physics of the situation. It used to take 20-40 minutes to get back to Nellis AFB from the 'play area' at ~420kts ground speed - for an Apache going at ~120kts it would take 1hr-2hrs!!! Even the poor old SF C-130s would struggle to make the timings at around 210kts ground speed.
So in my experience, to play on Ex RED FLAG as a participant, it would not really be possible. We used to get the odd HIND flown by the REDs (Agressors) in the training scenarios, but never seen an Allied RW participant on the BLUE side. Also, the cost would also likely be prohibitive.
iRaven
No, because the Apache crews would not be able to attend the briefing at Nellis AFB as by the time they got to the 'play area' to the North of Dreamland, everyone else would be going home! They would probably need a FARP (Forward Air Refuelling Point) set out in the desert and they would never make it back to the debrief on time.
Just think about the physics of the situation. It used to take 20-40 minutes to get back to Nellis AFB from the 'play area' at ~420kts ground speed - for an Apache going at ~120kts it would take 1hr-2hrs!!! Even the poor old SF C-130s would struggle to make the timings at around 210kts ground speed.
So in my experience, to play on Ex RED FLAG as a participant, it would not really be possible. We used to get the odd HIND flown by the REDs (Agressors) in the training scenarios, but never seen an Allied RW participant on the BLUE side. Also, the cost would also likely be prohibitive.
iRaven
since the early 90s, the USAF Fighter Weapons School have encouraged and included US Army and USMC attack helicopter assets into the various Red Flags.
Last edited by Easy Street; 14th Feb 2013 at 19:57.
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Won't be a problem for anyone after the current one apparently!!
Red Flag, Thunderbirds at Nellis targeted for grounding - News - ReviewJournal.com
Red Flag, Thunderbirds at Nellis targeted for grounding - News - ReviewJournal.com
With "fiscal cliff" budget cuts looming a few weeks away, Air Force leaders said Thursday they probably will cancel upcoming Red Flag air combat training exercises at Nellis Air Force Base
Thread Starter
@Evalu8tor
Hi I'm doing a bit of both, but also checking out the new kit / new deliveries and see if Eurocopter be unveiling a new bunny
glad you enjoyed it when you went, what year was that?
@TheWizard,
I forgot about sequestration and whereby either the Nevada or Utah Test and Training Ranges might fall into the crosshairs of those wanting to save the dollars and cents.
ACC continues planning for sequestration impacts
The resident 66th RQS and the HH-60G Weapons School would be included in the proceedings of Red Flag?
Anyhow I have a many Presidio Power and Superbase photo books by the late aviation photographer and author George Hall (he wrote and published two books on the old Top Gun one for the Motorbooks and the other Superbase 2) at the same time the Paramount Pictures movie was being filmed , of which I have the post Cold War revised edition of Red Flag: Air Combat for the 1990s pub by Motorbooks in 1993 and he mentions in Chapter 4; The Blue Force that the USMC AH-1W and AH-64 had taken part in CAS scenarios alongside the AV-8B during Red Flags prior to that.
Cheers
Hi I'm doing a bit of both, but also checking out the new kit / new deliveries and see if Eurocopter be unveiling a new bunny
glad you enjoyed it when you went, what year was that?@TheWizard,
I forgot about sequestration and whereby either the Nevada or Utah Test and Training Ranges might fall into the crosshairs of those wanting to save the dollars and cents.
ACC continues planning for sequestration impacts
The resident 66th RQS and the HH-60G Weapons School would be included in the proceedings of Red Flag?
Anyhow I have a many Presidio Power and Superbase photo books by the late aviation photographer and author George Hall (he wrote and published two books on the old Top Gun one for the Motorbooks and the other Superbase 2) at the same time the Paramount Pictures movie was being filmed , of which I have the post Cold War revised edition of Red Flag: Air Combat for the 1990s pub by Motorbooks in 1993 and he mentions in Chapter 4; The Blue Force that the USMC AH-1W and AH-64 had taken part in CAS scenarios alongside the AV-8B during Red Flags prior to that.
Cheers
