PAS Offer and FRI's?
Ground tours; albeit flying related ones; are part and parcel of PAS, that's hardly a shock.
If they're being pushed into completely non-flying related jobs then that's a bit of a waste. Which are you referring to?
Edit; to Chinook
If they're being pushed into completely non-flying related jobs then that's a bit of a waste. Which are you referring to?
Edit; to Chinook
Last edited by 5 Forward 6 Back; 3rd Feb 2013 at 19:17.
Regarding PAS pay, I looked at it recently, and it seems to me that the PAS Flt Lt who accepts assimilation at the same time as his chum gets promoted will be behind in terms of pay all through his career.
Sqn Ldr + ER FP is about £1k more than top rate Flt Lt PAS. If the pair are both senior Flt Lts on ER FP, then on promotion the Sqn Ldr will be £4k ahead and retain that advantage until he hits level 9 and the PAS guy catches up, but never pulls ahead.
At the upper end, a PAS Sqn Ldr can out-earn a level 9 Sqn Ldr on ER FP by about £4k, but under what circumstances do we have a similar-vintage PAS Flt Lt out-earning his career stream chum by £7k?
Sqn Ldr + ER FP is about £1k more than top rate Flt Lt PAS. If the pair are both senior Flt Lts on ER FP, then on promotion the Sqn Ldr will be £4k ahead and retain that advantage until he hits level 9 and the PAS guy catches up, but never pulls ahead.
At the upper end, a PAS Sqn Ldr can out-earn a level 9 Sqn Ldr on ER FP by about £4k, but under what circumstances do we have a similar-vintage PAS Flt Lt out-earning his career stream chum by £7k?
What a Goat! IMO, the problem with flying pay and pension rights should be resolved so that all regular pay is pensionable. I see no problem with long term retention on a graduated pay scale beyond 40 years old, the worst thing would be to penalise anyone that the Air Force chose to employ in a ground post. Surely, the annual appraisal is a forum for quality control of all personel?
OAP
OAP
5f6b
I quoted for top-rate rather than enhanced-rate (it is quite clear in the post); it is about £7k difference. I agree, with enhanced rate it narrows further, but never closes the gap between both types of Sqn Ldrs. Also, the PAS Sqn Ldr ends up with about a 30% bigger pension on retirement.
You asked about Flt Lts, but you can't really compare, as Flt Lts don't assimilate past 16/38 or 18/40 so they wouldn't go to 55.
But I'm sure I'm explaining things that you already know...
LJ
I quoted for top-rate rather than enhanced-rate (it is quite clear in the post); it is about £7k difference. I agree, with enhanced rate it narrows further, but never closes the gap between both types of Sqn Ldrs. Also, the PAS Sqn Ldr ends up with about a 30% bigger pension on retirement.
You asked about Flt Lts, but you can't really compare, as Flt Lts don't assimilate past 16/38 or 18/40 so they wouldn't go to 55.
But I'm sure I'm explaining things that you already know...
LJ
MM4
I believe the next CAS did not "look down his nose" for a Sqn Ldr job in a Station based HQ and JHC! Have a look at his bio.
I agree that selection of jobs at SO1 level make a lot of difference, but at SO2 level, where it is a little less competitive, it isn't as critical. I'ts just that those with burning ambitions tend to gravitate to MB, PJHQ and PSO jobs - if they do a good job then they normally go at least 1-2 ranks up, if not, they stagnate with the rest of us at Wg Cdr max.
Anyway, back to Flt Lt and Sqn Ldr stuff...
LJ
I believe the next CAS did not "look down his nose" for a Sqn Ldr job in a Station based HQ and JHC! Have a look at his bio.
I agree that selection of jobs at SO1 level make a lot of difference, but at SO2 level, where it is a little less competitive, it isn't as critical. I'ts just that those with burning ambitions tend to gravitate to MB, PJHQ and PSO jobs - if they do a good job then they normally go at least 1-2 ranks up, if not, they stagnate with the rest of us at Wg Cdr max.
Anyway, back to Flt Lt and Sqn Ldr stuff...
LJ
LJ,
Nope, not necessarily telling me stuff I know; I'm ploughing through the numbers as someone likely to have to make the choice at some point soon!
As far as I understand it, a level 9 Flt Lt on top rate FP will earn a shade under £59k, and a shade over £61k when he hits enhanced rate (which most who are expecting PAS offers this year or next will do before 38). At age 38, when he slides over to PAS, that means he'll enter the PAS pay scale at level 20; so his salary at age 38 is £61.3kpa.
A level 1 Sqn Ldr with top rate flying pay earns about £61.5k, and with enhanced rate about £64k. Even if he's promoted at 38, that means our career man's on £64k vs £61.3k for the PAS guy.
Level 9 Sqn Ldr plus enhanced rate FP is £73.3k. The Flt Lt PAS cap is level 30, which is £72.3k. I can't find any circumstances where the Flt Lt PAS chap manages to earn more than his mate who's promoted on the day he moves to PAS. He needs to get promoted too, but even then the very top PAS rate is only £4k per year more than level 9 Sqn Ldr plus ER FP.
Freely admit I may have missed something or may misunderstand the finer points about what happens when you transfer, but I can't see a situation until pension time where a career as a Flt Lt on PAS is more lucrative than promotion to Sqn Ldr?
Not trying to unnecessarily muddy the waters (I started looking at PAS salaries in earnest when I was 18 months from being boarded, especially when a senior PAS guy on my squadron claimed to be out-earning our Wg Cdr boss, which didn't make much sense to me...!), just hoping for some clarity before I join the droves making bad decisions....
Nope, not necessarily telling me stuff I know; I'm ploughing through the numbers as someone likely to have to make the choice at some point soon!
As far as I understand it, a level 9 Flt Lt on top rate FP will earn a shade under £59k, and a shade over £61k when he hits enhanced rate (which most who are expecting PAS offers this year or next will do before 38). At age 38, when he slides over to PAS, that means he'll enter the PAS pay scale at level 20; so his salary at age 38 is £61.3kpa.
A level 1 Sqn Ldr with top rate flying pay earns about £61.5k, and with enhanced rate about £64k. Even if he's promoted at 38, that means our career man's on £64k vs £61.3k for the PAS guy.
Level 9 Sqn Ldr plus enhanced rate FP is £73.3k. The Flt Lt PAS cap is level 30, which is £72.3k. I can't find any circumstances where the Flt Lt PAS chap manages to earn more than his mate who's promoted on the day he moves to PAS. He needs to get promoted too, but even then the very top PAS rate is only £4k per year more than level 9 Sqn Ldr plus ER FP.
Freely admit I may have missed something or may misunderstand the finer points about what happens when you transfer, but I can't see a situation until pension time where a career as a Flt Lt on PAS is more lucrative than promotion to Sqn Ldr?
Not trying to unnecessarily muddy the waters (I started looking at PAS salaries in earnest when I was 18 months from being boarded, especially when a senior PAS guy on my squadron claimed to be out-earning our Wg Cdr boss, which didn't make much sense to me...!), just hoping for some clarity before I join the droves making bad decisions....
5f6b
Your figures look about right. But your examples are only for those progressing to Sqn Ldr and PAS at the same time.
Let's look at the £7k example that I imagined (yes, I could have explained it better!). A level 35 PAS Sqn Ldr gets £77.6k pa and gets posted to a desk job (as in my example) and after a Flt Cdr tour and a ground tour a Level 6 "career" Sqn Ldr with top rate flying pay could have done the same job at £53.7k plus £13.7k (£67.4k total which is roughly £10k difference). He has done a great Flt Cdr job and a great 1st ground tour but has not been picked up. He gets enhanced rate that same year and raises his salary by a further £3k, but he is still getting £7k less than the PAS Sqn Ldr sitting at the desk opposite him and he will only ever close the gap to £4k if they both do the same job until 55. And when they are both in retirement, the PAS mate will be on Champagne and the "career" man will be on John Smiths, because the PAS man has a 30% bigger pension to p!ss up the wall.
I suspect you misheard your senior PAS guy, who, if a Sqn Ldr Pilot, will be getting a bigger pension than the Wg Cdr boss!
Sorry for the earlier confusing post, but using PAS Sqn Ldrs in ground tours is not value for money - that was the message I was trying to clumsily get accross.
LJ
PS - also for the "career" Sqn Ldr is the spectre of reserve banding flying pay after 3 years in a non-flying related job
This does not apply to PAS as they do not get Flying Pay.
Your figures look about right. But your examples are only for those progressing to Sqn Ldr and PAS at the same time.
Let's look at the £7k example that I imagined (yes, I could have explained it better!). A level 35 PAS Sqn Ldr gets £77.6k pa and gets posted to a desk job (as in my example) and after a Flt Cdr tour and a ground tour a Level 6 "career" Sqn Ldr with top rate flying pay could have done the same job at £53.7k plus £13.7k (£67.4k total which is roughly £10k difference). He has done a great Flt Cdr job and a great 1st ground tour but has not been picked up. He gets enhanced rate that same year and raises his salary by a further £3k, but he is still getting £7k less than the PAS Sqn Ldr sitting at the desk opposite him and he will only ever close the gap to £4k if they both do the same job until 55. And when they are both in retirement, the PAS mate will be on Champagne and the "career" man will be on John Smiths, because the PAS man has a 30% bigger pension to p!ss up the wall.
I suspect you misheard your senior PAS guy, who, if a Sqn Ldr Pilot, will be getting a bigger pension than the Wg Cdr boss!
Sorry for the earlier confusing post, but using PAS Sqn Ldrs in ground tours is not value for money - that was the message I was trying to clumsily get accross.
LJ
PS - also for the "career" Sqn Ldr is the spectre of reserve banding flying pay after 3 years in a non-flying related job
This does not apply to PAS as they do not get Flying Pay.
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 3rd Feb 2013 at 22:30.
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Worse than that now. Imagine losing all your flying pay if you get pushed into a double non flying pic desk tour. Unlikely I grant, but not impossible.
Chod away at pjhq making tea for the big boys? Sod off, you would have to be mad. Plenty of better paid work in defence contracting anyhow outside, so why bother trying to climb an increasingly greasy pole when you can work 9-5 for a decent company, company car and no bullsh8t?
Chod away at pjhq making tea for the big boys? Sod off, you would have to be mad. Plenty of better paid work in defence contracting anyhow outside, so why bother trying to climb an increasingly greasy pole when you can work 9-5 for a decent company, company car and no bullsh8t?
Last edited by VinRouge; 3rd Feb 2013 at 22:44.
Don't forget in these comparisons that those pilots who were PA before the level 30 bar was introduced have grandfather rights to reach level 35 so the senior mate may have had a point. Just watch out though because JPA needs manual adjustment to ensure that you pass level 30 when the time comes. It took a mate at BZN 3 months to get it sorted .
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Before we all get lost in the financial minutiae, lets remember what those retained on PAS are really there for. Their experience and Above Average nature (this year may be different but all previous boards have required the same criteria as for promotion) make them an essential part of the supervisory chain of any current Sqn with limited experience elsewhere.
I recently witnessed a combination of Flt Cdr and SEngO willing to sign of a inexperienced crew to fly an ac with a fairly major fault. It was only the PAS guy who overheard this that stepped in and explained how and why what they were proposing may lead to the major damage to the ac or potentially worse and stopped the whole debacle.
In any other sensible world of employment, they don't get hung up on rank, purely on value to the company and cost to keep, a bit like our medical brethren. The cost to train from new is several million so, in perspective, it's a pittance to pay for an experienced and proven operator adding to our DH's assurances ( which is what life seems to have become all about). As has been said already, the days of the crusty old wee-smelling PA sat in the corner adding nothing are gone.
I recently witnessed a combination of Flt Cdr and SEngO willing to sign of a inexperienced crew to fly an ac with a fairly major fault. It was only the PAS guy who overheard this that stepped in and explained how and why what they were proposing may lead to the major damage to the ac or potentially worse and stopped the whole debacle.
In any other sensible world of employment, they don't get hung up on rank, purely on value to the company and cost to keep, a bit like our medical brethren. The cost to train from new is several million so, in perspective, it's a pittance to pay for an experienced and proven operator adding to our DH's assurances ( which is what life seems to have become all about). As has been said already, the days of the crusty old wee-smelling PA sat in the corner adding nothing are gone.
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If there's no replacement FRI in Apr one of the big factors for me is that by taking PAS I'm effectively signing away the lump sum and pension until at least 43. By my rough figures, that's just over £600 per month pension after tax, also if I were to throw the lump sum at the mortgage i'd save approx £250 (maybe more) on the monthly payment. So if I stay past 38, I'm effectively working the first £850 of my monthly wage for free. Granted I need to get a job paying a similar wage in civvy street but IF the airlines start up again that's a possibility. Am I missing something here?
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You haven't missed anything. The RAF needs pilots, so trapping someone for 5 years (for free) makes sense for Manning. Maybe a bit of a gamble for the individual though, but so is the airline market these days.
On the promotion v PA pay argument - can a Sqn Ldr really expect to maintain ER FP all the way to 55 (or 60) to remain ahead of the PA Flt Lt? And then the Sqn Ldr pension may well be less on the career average scheme if FP isn't pensionable. A 'guarantee' that you could swap to PAS if you didn't crack Wg Cdr might help. But then the Wg Cdrs would chunter on...
von K
On the promotion v PA pay argument - can a Sqn Ldr really expect to maintain ER FP all the way to 55 (or 60) to remain ahead of the PA Flt Lt? And then the Sqn Ldr pension may well be less on the career average scheme if FP isn't pensionable. A 'guarantee' that you could swap to PAS if you didn't crack Wg Cdr might help. But then the Wg Cdrs would chunter on...
von K
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I reckon there is about to be a big sh£t sandwich announced. It's the only explanation why so many PA offers have been dished out early.
AlR, any suggestions as to what it could be?
AlR, any suggestions as to what it could be?
Last edited by VinRouge; 4th Feb 2013 at 19:20.
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Well as it is a rumour network, let's have a go
#1 - RAF Tutor retired due to prop failure, no basic pilot training for 2-3 years until new contract/aircraft, therefore PAS needed to mind the gap?
don't tell me they are back flying? If so
#2 - UK to dispose of old atomic waste discretely over some pacific atoll, RAF pilots needed to fly through the fireball. VC-10 can do the role and take 100 pilots at a time, expected to save millions in pensions and scrapping the fleet?
#3 - RAF screws up manning levels by chopping too many newbie pilots? Now that is highly unlikely!
#1 - RAF Tutor retired due to prop failure, no basic pilot training for 2-3 years until new contract/aircraft, therefore PAS needed to mind the gap?
don't tell me they are back flying? If so
#2 - UK to dispose of old atomic waste discretely over some pacific atoll, RAF pilots needed to fly through the fireball. VC-10 can do the role and take 100 pilots at a time, expected to save millions in pensions and scrapping the fleet?
#3 - RAF screws up manning levels by chopping too many newbie pilots? Now that is highly unlikely!
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I'm "above average" in my present role and all the roles I've had before - all 35 years of them.
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For those that cared, sorry for deleting some of my posts over the weekend. Too much wine and too little thought I am afraid.
But as someone with less than 10 years, so TACOS safe and no personal interest in this debate I just want to put my shaking head in my hands.
No wonder MoD is in such a paralous state, from a Business Model perspective if it were in the Private Sector it would be broke. As the Financial Times reported the drop in unemployment with a million jobs being added since 2010 has absolutely nothing to do with the state of economy, but reflects 'labour hoarding' where firms keep or recruit staff so as "to exploit opportunities when the recovery comes".
And here we are making people redundant and changing TACOS.
I regularly see many on Prune (normally ex Air Force in airline employment) talk about a maybe/maybe not recovery in the airline sector. Irrespective of the recently announced profits in Ryanair or EasyJet, the shop floor that I am working on is seeing many scope early employment outside of the airline sector as there appears no incentive to them to remain and are looking at all options. I also see significantly less experience (both in total hours and wider aviation experience beyond Iraq and Afghan).
I personally know of very few (if any?) Wg Cdrs that will be on less of a total remuneration package than someone on PAS.
If PAS goes or is reduced in such a degree not to attract our most gifted and experienced aircrew, then I look forward to seeing what the hierarchy will try and present as a viable alternative. Filling cockpit seats with enthusiastic and maliable new recruits is the easy bit. Making sure that the RAF flying environment is supervised, authorised; with correct training and standards will be the challenge if there is no incentive to keep our experienced aviation cadre.
Add the removal or significant reduction in PAS remuneration to all of the other changes and reductions in TACOS and it really will be a very simple choice to leave at an early age to truly get a second career and not attempt to scrabble around for suitable employment in your 50s waiting for your Service pension at 60 and a state pension at 67 plus.
Now either I really am missing something, or the current rumours of removing PAS will create an expensive RAF of the future (financially,but hopefully not in life).
But as someone with less than 10 years, so TACOS safe and no personal interest in this debate I just want to put my shaking head in my hands.
No wonder MoD is in such a paralous state, from a Business Model perspective if it were in the Private Sector it would be broke. As the Financial Times reported the drop in unemployment with a million jobs being added since 2010 has absolutely nothing to do with the state of economy, but reflects 'labour hoarding' where firms keep or recruit staff so as "to exploit opportunities when the recovery comes".
And here we are making people redundant and changing TACOS.
I regularly see many on Prune (normally ex Air Force in airline employment) talk about a maybe/maybe not recovery in the airline sector. Irrespective of the recently announced profits in Ryanair or EasyJet, the shop floor that I am working on is seeing many scope early employment outside of the airline sector as there appears no incentive to them to remain and are looking at all options. I also see significantly less experience (both in total hours and wider aviation experience beyond Iraq and Afghan).
I personally know of very few (if any?) Wg Cdrs that will be on less of a total remuneration package than someone on PAS.
If PAS goes or is reduced in such a degree not to attract our most gifted and experienced aircrew, then I look forward to seeing what the hierarchy will try and present as a viable alternative. Filling cockpit seats with enthusiastic and maliable new recruits is the easy bit. Making sure that the RAF flying environment is supervised, authorised; with correct training and standards will be the challenge if there is no incentive to keep our experienced aviation cadre.
Add the removal or significant reduction in PAS remuneration to all of the other changes and reductions in TACOS and it really will be a very simple choice to leave at an early age to truly get a second career and not attempt to scrabble around for suitable employment in your 50s waiting for your Service pension at 60 and a state pension at 67 plus.
Now either I really am missing something, or the current rumours of removing PAS will create an expensive RAF of the future (financially,but hopefully not in life).
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 5th Feb 2013 at 18:33.
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FRI
FRI is payable but only if your IPP was between 1 Apr 10 and 31 Mar 13. No indication of whether it will be kept beyond April. If you get the FRI, keep £3500 aside for the expected tax bill the following year! Should receive £46400 but with a £3500 additional tax liability the following year.
Hope that helps.
Lastly, let's post info and help, not abuse. It's just ugly and unnecessary.
Hope that helps.
Lastly, let's post info and help, not abuse. It's just ugly and unnecessary.
Bobby T. Nope. You're missing nothing and I think your figures are spot on.
It's a con and it's causing a lot of anger. People with 2 to 2.5 years left are being offered flying tours BUT only if they sign on for PAS as they won't be able to do a full 3 years ROS.
Without an FRI, you effectively lose your pension for that period and the pay off lump sum!
For some, it's nothing short of blackmail.
It's a con and it's causing a lot of anger. People with 2 to 2.5 years left are being offered flying tours BUT only if they sign on for PAS as they won't be able to do a full 3 years ROS.
Without an FRI, you effectively lose your pension for that period and the pay off lump sum!
For some, it's nothing short of blackmail.
