Tornado F3/GR4 Question.
The saddest thing from my perspective, the decision could have stopped this happening http://www.iwar.org.uk/news-archive/.../maaszg710.pdf. The poor old GR4a that was flying this ALARM mission was still running legacy Mode 4 IFF, whereas the F3 had Successor IFF (SIFF) which would not have failed as easily. Furthermore, F3 had Link 16 which is used as the top ID criteria for Patriot. Therefore, whoever made the decision cost 2 guys their lives - and 'no' I am suggesting a 'witch hunt' as the person who did make the decision could not have reasonably understood the consequence (IMHO).
I was in theatre when this event happened and a few weeks after the incident, I happened to get to chat with some of the Patriot operators at my location about all of the friendly fire incidents that their brethren up north had been involved in (it wasn't just the GR4, they killed a US Navy F/A-18 and its pilot as well and also lost a radar when the F-16CJ that they locked up on didn’t take any chances and loosed off a HARM in quick order). That was the first I heard of the Patriot battery engaging the Tornado thinking it was an ARM and they also called the individual who fired the missile a Muppet! This link gives a good overview of the problems the US Army had with Patriot during OIF.
There is always the case that where would the EF’s be based, well there was only really one location where the infrastructure was already in place and the deal with the land owners were Air to Air and support assets only (though the Yanks did operate HARM shooters from there, but they were there before Telic/OIF kicked off). Given that getting any extra items into that place was a nightmare (especially ARM’s for offensive use, which we hadn’t used on the aircraft in the time we had been there) there is a good chance that the upper echelons decided it wasn’t worth the hassle.
Bouncing back to the unanswered part of the original post:
Yes. Tornado GRs have always had the ability to carry 2 AAMs, AIM-9L for the majority of the aircraft's service life but also ASRAAM for the last couple of years. Regular trial/training firings of both types of missile still occur against towed flares and the capability can certainly be described as mature. The gun can also be used air-to-air and this is also trained for.
A bomber's preferred tactic is always to avoid merging with the enemy, because that typically means jettisoning weapons and immediate mission failure (this is true even for swing-role types such as F15E and Typhoon). Tornado GR air combat could be described, charitably, as 'pigs dancing ballet' but that is largely down to the effects of high wing loading (inherent in the design of a low-level bomber) and low maximum thrust (because the engines were designed for fuel efficiency, to maximise combat radius). With decent straight-line speed and an excellent missile in ASRAAM the GR4 still has some things going for it - and with the imminent addition of Link-16 capability it will get easier to avoid trouble. Or, to enter trouble with enough situational awareness to get a rapid ASRAAM shot away and get the hell out!
with a Tornado Gr4, if they were bounced by enemy fighters, could the Tornado use its armaments to attack the enemy fighters?
A bomber's preferred tactic is always to avoid merging with the enemy, because that typically means jettisoning weapons and immediate mission failure (this is true even for swing-role types such as F15E and Typhoon). Tornado GR air combat could be described, charitably, as 'pigs dancing ballet' but that is largely down to the effects of high wing loading (inherent in the design of a low-level bomber) and low maximum thrust (because the engines were designed for fuel efficiency, to maximise combat radius). With decent straight-line speed and an excellent missile in ASRAAM the GR4 still has some things going for it - and with the imminent addition of Link-16 capability it will get easier to avoid trouble. Or, to enter trouble with enough situational awareness to get a rapid ASRAAM shot away and get the hell out!
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I remember reading ages ago of the idea of using GRs with AAMs to 'sneak up' at low level on enemy AEW aircraft. Was this seriously considered or just a civilian/amateur/video game fantasy?
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Leon spot on about EF-3.
As far as other A-G capability it would be purely emergency only, nothing else available. The gun was very accurate in A-G on a range but due to the way it did range finding it wouldn't necessarily be so in a real world situation. SOme people seem to be linking it to Iraq but iirc it was first introduced for the Balkans. I nearly got to go to Solenzara.
Likewise the GR for AA would be self defence only, and not great at that given turn performance and the limitations of AIM-9. However with the move to ASRAAM and the addition of off-board cueing, I would say self defence would be very good, but I wouldn't plan to use it deliberately.
Nautilus I think that would either be an opportunity shot due to luck (plus brilliant crew skills, ofc
) or video game fantasy!
As far as other A-G capability it would be purely emergency only, nothing else available. The gun was very accurate in A-G on a range but due to the way it did range finding it wouldn't necessarily be so in a real world situation. SOme people seem to be linking it to Iraq but iirc it was first introduced for the Balkans. I nearly got to go to Solenzara.
Likewise the GR for AA would be self defence only, and not great at that given turn performance and the limitations of AIM-9. However with the move to ASRAAM and the addition of off-board cueing, I would say self defence would be very good, but I wouldn't plan to use it deliberately.
Nautilus I think that would either be an opportunity shot due to luck (plus brilliant crew skills, ofc
) or video game fantasy!
Last edited by Backwards PLT; 6th Jan 2013 at 07:29.
I also got called to do "show of force" by a FAC over Bosnia (if I recall they were called "air presence missions"). A small British convoy was under fire and asked us to come down low and fast. They stopped shooting at the convoy...because instead they started shooting at us! I also remember seeing the corkscrew smoke trail of something fired at us, but it looked like it failed to guide.
There were quite a few of these flown by F3s during the mid 90s.
Fox3 - As for responsibility. The decision to not use EF3 was not the single decision that sealed the fate of the GR4 in 2003. Using the "Reason Swiss Cheese" model any of the following could have intervened:
- deciding to deploy EF3 (although the GR4 would probably be fragged to do something else)
- deciding to advance the modification program for GR4 SIFF
- insisting on a 100% ground check of Mode 4
- insisting on SHORAD checking the outbound Mode 4s
- insisting on a 100% check of Mode 4 by AWACS or RED CROWN on check in
- insisting that any failure of Mode 4 return is immediately reported by any Mode 4 interrogator (AWACS, SAM, Fighter Jet, Ship and EW RADAR)
- understanding and rectifying the Patriot software parameters
The final unsafe act being the Patriot operator releasing the system to engage the wrongly identified GR4.
Any of these could have saved the crew. That is why there should not be a 'witch hunt' as I do not believe any single person, or group of persons, was/were responsible (again IMHO).
If it is any consolation, the Mode 4 fitted to the jet had been used 1,000s of times by both marks of Tornado on previous Operations since 1990. If still flying Tornado today, I would quite happily get in it again and fly with this Mode 4 system. It was quite reliable, but did fail occasionally, and so as an operator everyone had to be alive to this fact. Sadly, on that fateful day the whole system of checks failed and cost some good mates their lives.
LJ
There were quite a few of these flown by F3s during the mid 90s.
Fox3 - As for responsibility. The decision to not use EF3 was not the single decision that sealed the fate of the GR4 in 2003. Using the "Reason Swiss Cheese" model any of the following could have intervened:
- deciding to deploy EF3 (although the GR4 would probably be fragged to do something else)
- deciding to advance the modification program for GR4 SIFF
- insisting on a 100% ground check of Mode 4
- insisting on SHORAD checking the outbound Mode 4s
- insisting on a 100% check of Mode 4 by AWACS or RED CROWN on check in
- insisting that any failure of Mode 4 return is immediately reported by any Mode 4 interrogator (AWACS, SAM, Fighter Jet, Ship and EW RADAR)
- understanding and rectifying the Patriot software parameters
The final unsafe act being the Patriot operator releasing the system to engage the wrongly identified GR4.
Any of these could have saved the crew. That is why there should not be a 'witch hunt' as I do not believe any single person, or group of persons, was/were responsible (again IMHO).
If it is any consolation, the Mode 4 fitted to the jet had been used 1,000s of times by both marks of Tornado on previous Operations since 1990. If still flying Tornado today, I would quite happily get in it again and fly with this Mode 4 system. It was quite reliable, but did fail occasionally, and so as an operator everyone had to be alive to this fact. Sadly, on that fateful day the whole system of checks failed and cost some good mates their lives.
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 6th Jan 2013 at 10:47.
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I had the luck to be on the F3OEU throughout the period that we developed the ALARM, ELS,TIALD capabilities, put ARAAM AND ASRAAM into service and developed the HMS. So much potential and yet so little realised.
The RAF has historically had a problem in that the air-to-air and air-to-ground comunities have been divided. The GR4 force has it's origines in Bomber Command. Even during the Falklands War there were lessons to be learnt but were ignored. The F4 gave use the oportunity to meld the two disciplins together and the moment was missed.
Had we not been involved in a turf war at Group level over the past 20 years we could have developed a number of capailities. Our aim on the F3OEU was to develop and demonstrate new capabilities.
The Tornado F3 as a platform was a superior ac to the GR. Not only due to fuel and engines. The ac was designed from the outset to have JTIDS. The RHWR fit was suited to ELS. The nav fit was twin LINS GPS. The radio fit was 2 x Havequick, HF, Secure Com and JTIDS voice. The NVG fit was superior to GR4. TTD was fitted and operational. Once a Data Bus was wired to the weapons stations anything was possible.
Many lessons to be learnt, do you think we (the RAF) will?
The RAF has historically had a problem in that the air-to-air and air-to-ground comunities have been divided. The GR4 force has it's origines in Bomber Command. Even during the Falklands War there were lessons to be learnt but were ignored. The F4 gave use the oportunity to meld the two disciplins together and the moment was missed.
Had we not been involved in a turf war at Group level over the past 20 years we could have developed a number of capailities. Our aim on the F3OEU was to develop and demonstrate new capabilities.
The Tornado F3 as a platform was a superior ac to the GR. Not only due to fuel and engines. The ac was designed from the outset to have JTIDS. The RHWR fit was suited to ELS. The nav fit was twin LINS GPS. The radio fit was 2 x Havequick, HF, Secure Com and JTIDS voice. The NVG fit was superior to GR4. TTD was fitted and operational. Once a Data Bus was wired to the weapons stations anything was possible.
Many lessons to be learnt, do you think we (the RAF) will?
One of the main benefits of putting ASRAAM in with the bombers (either on the bombers or on embedded fighters) it that it changes the attckers' freedom to get mixed up with them. Knowing that ASRAAMs are pointed at you changes the mindset wonderfully.
Good post Dominator. Having spent some time on the OEU and then in MOD I think the average front line pilot or nav would be amazed at the opportunities missed to update an in-service aircraft , in case the update should jeopardize a future programme.
On the ASRAAM topic, it's an amazing missile. I was lucky enough to fire one at M1.4 during the clearance programme. We counted down to firing, both of us looked for it, but it was off the rail so quickly and left so little smoke or trail we never saw a thing! A high speed, invisible hitile coming at you would be a depressing prospect.
On the ASRAAM topic, it's an amazing missile. I was lucky enough to fire one at M1.4 during the clearance programme. We counted down to firing, both of us looked for it, but it was off the rail so quickly and left so little smoke or trail we never saw a thing! A high speed, invisible hitile coming at you would be a depressing prospect.
Being a pedant, RADAlt is RADAR ranging (in height!). 
The F3 used RADAlt for air-gnd and RADAR for air-air gunnery - although there was 'wiggly string' CCIL (Computer Calculated Impact Line? Can't remember) that predicted where your rounds might fall at various ranges without any RADAR help.
The F3 used RADAlt for air-gnd and RADAR for air-air gunnery - although there was 'wiggly string' CCIL (Computer Calculated Impact Line? Can't remember) that predicted where your rounds might fall at various ranges without any RADAR help.
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On the A/G ranging the F3OEU did trial radar ranging using the Fox Hunter. With the help of a small fury animal (ferret) we developed using a pulse radar mode. It looked fairly good even over hilly terrain. Unfortunately our trial of Live Strafe on Sennybridge was cancelled due to weather. Due to clearance limitations we never got our chance to prove it against APCs and tanks. The good thing was it worked really well up to 25deg dive angles.
Last edited by Dominator2; 8th Jan 2013 at 16:40.
Fox3WheresMy Banana,
"Having tried it...'
Pray tell, how did you manage to get the Polecat to stay still?
"Having tried it...'
Pray tell, how did you manage to get the Polecat to stay still?
