Long Range SAR
HH,
If you don't have a crash in your car for 10 years do you cancel your insurance policy?
We have committed ourselves in international agreements to provide SAR provision out to 30W. We need either to honour that agreement, or give it up. Our government is the first to criticise other nations who fail to live up to their agreed obligations, indeed we seem to have a habit of invading some who don't!
As to your question, I don't know exactly, and don't really care. I suggest you put in a FOI request if you are really interested. However, a brief look at the 8 month period Aug 99 to Mar 00 (I got bored at that point) shows:
28 Aug 99 incident at 4811N 02758W
8 further incidents west of 015W
Other operators have already shared their personal experiences.
With the large growth in sales of SAR beacons in recent years, and planned changes to satellite reaction times, I can see the number of beacon hits well offshore increasing in the years to come. How do you investigate or respond to these, especially if they are unregistered (private yachting individual) so there are no contact details, or if you can't establish comms by radio? The nearest surface traffic, if you can determine exactly where it all is, could be well over 12 hours away, an aircraft could potentially be on scene within 4-5 hours worse case. Each incident can only be treated as a real one until proven otherwise.
If you don't have a crash in your car for 10 years do you cancel your insurance policy?
We have committed ourselves in international agreements to provide SAR provision out to 30W. We need either to honour that agreement, or give it up. Our government is the first to criticise other nations who fail to live up to their agreed obligations, indeed we seem to have a habit of invading some who don't!
As to your question, I don't know exactly, and don't really care. I suggest you put in a FOI request if you are really interested. However, a brief look at the 8 month period Aug 99 to Mar 00 (I got bored at that point) shows:
28 Aug 99 incident at 4811N 02758W
8 further incidents west of 015W
Other operators have already shared their personal experiences.
With the large growth in sales of SAR beacons in recent years, and planned changes to satellite reaction times, I can see the number of beacon hits well offshore increasing in the years to come. How do you investigate or respond to these, especially if they are unregistered (private yachting individual) so there are no contact details, or if you can't establish comms by radio? The nearest surface traffic, if you can determine exactly where it all is, could be well over 12 hours away, an aircraft could potentially be on scene within 4-5 hours worse case. Each incident can only be treated as a real one until proven otherwise.
Coordinating helos? Providing them with a Traffic Service? Detecting sizeable boats/ships on the surface?
Surely, this could be covered, should the need arise, by 1 of our 6x E-3D AWACS? I would wager that for the "High Boy" job for LRSAR it is a better platform from the helicopter's point of view? It has a longer loiter, a more powerful RADAR, stacks of radios, AIS (ship transponder detection), SATCOM and a stack of qualified controllers to give a proper service to SAR helicopters.
I see no capability gap in this particular area... (when coupled to Cobham's fisheries protection aircraft) ...now if we couple it to C-130J carrying Lindholme Gear after next year, then we only miss the ASW - and according to the Royal Navy they have this covered by FFs, DDs, SSNs and 'pinging' helos.
Can we please give the "whoe is us, we have no capability" a rest, please. We have some capability and we're skint so cannot afford anything else for now.
How about a Christmas truce and a New Year's resolution not to mention the "N" word (no that's not Guy Gibson's dog!)? Let's let her rest in piece as a great maritime aircraft of yesteryear.
iRaven
Surely, this could be covered, should the need arise, by 1 of our 6x E-3D AWACS? I would wager that for the "High Boy" job for LRSAR it is a better platform from the helicopter's point of view? It has a longer loiter, a more powerful RADAR, stacks of radios, AIS (ship transponder detection), SATCOM and a stack of qualified controllers to give a proper service to SAR helicopters.
I see no capability gap in this particular area... (when coupled to Cobham's fisheries protection aircraft) ...now if we couple it to C-130J carrying Lindholme Gear after next year, then we only miss the ASW - and according to the Royal Navy they have this covered by FFs, DDs, SSNs and 'pinging' helos.
Can we please give the "whoe is us, we have no capability" a rest, please. We have some capability and we're skint so cannot afford anything else for now.
How about a Christmas truce and a New Year's resolution not to mention the "N" word (no that's not Guy Gibson's dog!)? Let's let her rest in piece as a great maritime aircraft of yesteryear.
iRaven
Fine......
Put an E-3D on permanent SAR standby then, and train the crews accordingly!
We may have make do and mend capability, or the assets to provide it if we were to consider it a priority - but do we actually have any formally committed assets?
I never mentioned the N word, and it's not Christmas yet!
Put an E-3D on permanent SAR standby then, and train the crews accordingly!
We may have make do and mend capability, or the assets to provide it if we were to consider it a priority - but do we actually have any formally committed assets?
I never mentioned the N word, and it's not Christmas yet!
Last edited by Biggus; 22nd Dec 2012 at 15:34.
I don't know, wasn't my suggestion to use E-3D!
MPA seedcorn, NATO run ACO course, RAF/RN SAR helo crews, etc......
I suspect the E-3D fleet probably consider they are already adequately trained.
MPA seedcorn, NATO run ACO course, RAF/RN SAR helo crews, etc......
I suspect the E-3D fleet probably consider they are already adequately trained.
Last edited by Biggus; 22nd Dec 2012 at 16:44.
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I suspect the E-3D fleet probably consider they are already adequately trained.
I guess it depends on what you want them to do? Provide a maritime surpic, comms relay with control of RW/FW aircraft, then that is AWACS 'bread and butter'. If you want low-level search, detection of periscopes, airborne delivery of survival gear and photography, then it's not.
As iRaven says, it provides some capability, but not all. Add C-130J into the mix when Afg ramps down and you might be there to cover LRSAR capability. How about a tie-up with the Irish Air Corps under an International MoU?
IIRC there was an option a few years ago to reduce the number of UK AWACS Crews for a few years and then to build them up again - has this started? Otherwise, it would be tricky to hold 24/7 standby and meet the NATO task (unless you could hold airborne standby under NATO's agreement).
CPL Clott
Last edited by Corporal Clott; 22nd Dec 2012 at 17:43.
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Long range SAR? Wouldn't a Herc do it?
I once flew a civilian, G-model Herc from the Azores to Dallas. 14.3 hours block with adequate reserves on landing. We had external tanks and no load to speak of, which might be similar to a SAR configured Herc.
I once flew a civilian, G-model Herc from the Azores to Dallas. 14.3 hours block with adequate reserves on landing. We had external tanks and no load to speak of, which might be similar to a SAR configured Herc.
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However, can the IAC CN-235 physically get out as far as 4505N 02955W, and if it could, would it ever actually be made available to assist the UK if it were requested to go that far?
I suspect the answer to both of those questions would be no!
I suspect the answer to both of those questions would be no!
Your correct in that we don't have the range (been out to 54W myself) but yes, any request for help would be honoured within our operational limits. Though I cannot speak for individual command decisions.
We've provided cover many times for RN ships and aircraft and RAF closer in.
We regulary provide coms relay for coastguard missions also.
To cheesely quote a line from 'that' movie.
just remember , when its over out there, we're all on the same team
Merry Christmas all and safe flying wherever you are and whatever flag you fly,
Cheers,
BW
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"If you don't have a crash in your car for 10 years do you cancel your insurance policy"
no but you expect the premiums to come down
If all we need is something to sit at height for hours over an incident we should buy a second hand A340 without any special (=expensive) mods
no but you expect the premiums to come down
If all we need is something to sit at height for hours over an incident we should buy a second hand A340 without any special (=expensive) mods
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Seems I have started a reasonable debate.
I would like this country to have a full MPA capability, but in the current economic climate I cannot see this happening in the forseeable future.
By the end of 2014, with the A340 coming into service we will have more AT capacity than we need. That is assuming we don't decide to invade yet another country.
There will be futher pressure for cuts. Since the C130J is the oldest aircraft in the fleet it is where the cuts are likely to fall.
If it is impossible to save the complete fleet of 23?, we should at least campaign to keep a Squadron of 12 - 14 aircraft.
A force of this size would including Training Flight, STANEVAL etc require between 30 -40 CR crews. All of these crews would be Truckie qualified and able to take troops and equipment anywhere in the world. This would remain the primary task of the Aircraft.
To satisfy the Special Forces a small number of crews (6 - 8?) would be trained for SF operations.
A similar number of crews could be specifically trained for SAR Operations.
It would then be possible to keep an on base QRA crew ready for rapid response. A further crew could be made available at 6 hours notice.
All that is now needed are a few RO RO ASRA kits.
Top cover by an AWACS would be the icing on the cake, but they have other tasks.
I would like this country to have a full MPA capability, but in the current economic climate I cannot see this happening in the forseeable future.
By the end of 2014, with the A340 coming into service we will have more AT capacity than we need. That is assuming we don't decide to invade yet another country.
There will be futher pressure for cuts. Since the C130J is the oldest aircraft in the fleet it is where the cuts are likely to fall.
If it is impossible to save the complete fleet of 23?, we should at least campaign to keep a Squadron of 12 - 14 aircraft.
A force of this size would including Training Flight, STANEVAL etc require between 30 -40 CR crews. All of these crews would be Truckie qualified and able to take troops and equipment anywhere in the world. This would remain the primary task of the Aircraft.
To satisfy the Special Forces a small number of crews (6 - 8?) would be trained for SF operations.
A similar number of crews could be specifically trained for SAR Operations.
It would then be possible to keep an on base QRA crew ready for rapid response. A further crew could be made available at 6 hours notice.
All that is now needed are a few RO RO ASRA kits.
Top cover by an AWACS would be the icing on the cake, but they have other tasks.
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Excuse me, guys, how much reaction time on call of various SAR?
For example Italian Air Force SAR is 120 minute (from phone call to take-off)
And USCG, Canada, UK and other countries?
Thank you
For example Italian Air Force SAR is 120 minute (from phone call to take-off)
And USCG, Canada, UK and other countries?
Thank you
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Lazy Italians. 
SAR Program Info
SAR Program Info
SAR Program Standards and Requirements
Certain standards and requirements have been developed for various components of the Coast Guard’s SAR system.
SAR Readiness: Each Coast Guard unit with a SAR readiness responsibility shall have a suitable SAR resource ready to proceed within 30 minutes of notification of a distress.
SAR Mission Response: No greater than a two-hour total response time for any one response unit within a Sector or unit’s AOR to arrive at any location within the AOR. This time is calculated from time of notification of the Coast Guard until the time of arrival on scene, including 30 minutes of preparation time (i.e. a total of 90 minutes from underway to on-scene).
Certain standards and requirements have been developed for various components of the Coast Guard’s SAR system.
SAR Readiness: Each Coast Guard unit with a SAR readiness responsibility shall have a suitable SAR resource ready to proceed within 30 minutes of notification of a distress.
SAR Mission Response: No greater than a two-hour total response time for any one response unit within a Sector or unit’s AOR to arrive at any location within the AOR. This time is calculated from time of notification of the Coast Guard until the time of arrival on scene, including 30 minutes of preparation time (i.e. a total of 90 minutes from underway to on-scene).
Last edited by GreenKnight121; 9th Jan 2013 at 06:17.
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Germany: No long range SAR, no readiness for any fixed wing aircraft.
Purely Sea Kings Mk41 @ 15 mins during day time and 60 mins during night time. Almost always faster than that, around 5-10 mins with the sun out and around 20-30 mins at night, depending on the mission (evac from an island or people in the water. With the ferry on fire in 2011 (Lisco Glora) I believe they were out of their beds and airborne within around 10 mins.
As with the difference between Italy and the US:
As I understand it from the Coast Guard SAR course the always launch a C-130 when a help goes out for more than a few miles.
Pretty sure the Italiens don´t but use it on an irregular basis, for those rare long range missions.
That might explain the 2 hours.
Tom
Purely Sea Kings Mk41 @ 15 mins during day time and 60 mins during night time. Almost always faster than that, around 5-10 mins with the sun out and around 20-30 mins at night, depending on the mission (evac from an island or people in the water. With the ferry on fire in 2011 (Lisco Glora) I believe they were out of their beds and airborne within around 10 mins.
As with the difference between Italy and the US:
As I understand it from the Coast Guard SAR course the always launch a C-130 when a help goes out for more than a few miles.
Pretty sure the Italiens don´t but use it on an irregular basis, for those rare long range missions.
That might explain the 2 hours.
Tom