70 years ago today...
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Mitsubishi aircraft. Hmm. I wonder if this chap may have had something to do with it.
William Forbes-Sempill, 19th Lord Sempill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
OK, I know it's Wikipedia...........
William Forbes-Sempill, 19th Lord Sempill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
OK, I know it's Wikipedia...........
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Even if Indomitable had not run aground in the entry channel to Kingston Harbour, she would still have NOT made it to Singapore in time to cover POW & Repulse's sortie... not even if she never entered port in Singapore but sailed directly on north!
POW sailed for Singapore on 25 October, met up with Repulse at Colombo, Ceylon on 29 November, and arrived Singapore 2 December. They were sunk 8 days later.
Indomitable was entering harbor in Jamaica 9 days after POW sailed for Singapore, to START her pre-deployment work-ups! Therefore, she was intended to be in that area for several more days (if not weeks) before heading for the Far East. She had been commissioned only a month earlier, and her crew needed to gain familiarity and proficiency in both operating the ship and in handling aircraft on the flight deck, including take-offs and landings.
If she had not run aground, and if her orders had been changed that day to sail immediately for Singapore, she would probably have arrived the day after POW & Repulse were sunk. Remember, the UK was not yet at war with Japan, nor did they know that war would start in one month (despite the claims of tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorists), so they would not have been proceeding with any more speed than POW had been.
The crew would also not have been very good at working the ship (although this would have improved during the passage). The real problem would be that the flight deck crews and pilots would be hard-pressed to conduct sufficient training during the passage... especially if they ran into any bad weather.
World Naval Ships Forums - View Single Post - Aground off Kingston - an Indomitable tale
More info at the link above.
POW sailed for Singapore on 25 October, met up with Repulse at Colombo, Ceylon on 29 November, and arrived Singapore 2 December. They were sunk 8 days later.
Indomitable was entering harbor in Jamaica 9 days after POW sailed for Singapore, to START her pre-deployment work-ups! Therefore, she was intended to be in that area for several more days (if not weeks) before heading for the Far East. She had been commissioned only a month earlier, and her crew needed to gain familiarity and proficiency in both operating the ship and in handling aircraft on the flight deck, including take-offs and landings.
If she had not run aground, and if her orders had been changed that day to sail immediately for Singapore, she would probably have arrived the day after POW & Repulse were sunk. Remember, the UK was not yet at war with Japan, nor did they know that war would start in one month (despite the claims of tin-foil-hat conspiracy theorists), so they would not have been proceeding with any more speed than POW had been.
The crew would also not have been very good at working the ship (although this would have improved during the passage). The real problem would be that the flight deck crews and pilots would be hard-pressed to conduct sufficient training during the passage... especially if they ran into any bad weather.
World Naval Ships Forums - View Single Post - Aground off Kingston - an Indomitable tale
Originally Posted by post linked above
The following is largely based on the story told by Hugh Popham, then a young FAA pilot aboard Indomitable, as told in his book Sea Flight,first published in 1954.
On November 3, 1941 in the tranquil tropical waters off Kingston, Jamaica and event occurred that arguably had repercussions far beyond the immediate problem of the event itself.
The new aircraft carrier HMS Indomitable, completed on October 1, 1941 was undergoing her working up exercises and was arriving in Kingston which was to be her Caribbean base.
Kingston Harbour is a large lagoon protected from the open Caribbean Sea by a narrow peninsula called the Palisadoes Strip with its entrance being at the western end. On the tip of Palisadoes is the famous town of Port Royal – home of 17th Century privateer Sir Henry Morgan and his buccaneers. Halfway along Palisadoes is the location of the Norman Manley International Airport.
Ships entering the harbour travel from east to west parallel to the strip then make a sharp turn to starboard to enter the lagoon. They have to navigate between numerous shoals along a channel which would be identified by buoys.
On the afternoon of November 3, Indomitable swung into the entry channel, cutting her engines to very slow ahead, almost drifting along at about 5 knots. FAA pilot Hugh Popham noted that the ship was quiet with the “ripple of the bow wave” being louder than the hum of the engines. It was a clear, calm day with a plain view of the city (then town) of Kingston beyond the Palisadoes Strip against the backdrop of the green hills and partly cloudy sky.
Suddenly there was a crash and a shudder and the ship stopped dead in her tracks. Initially there was the thought of a torpedo, but there weren’t supposed to be u-boats in the vicinity. There was only one explanation – they had run aground.
On November 3, 1941 in the tranquil tropical waters off Kingston, Jamaica and event occurred that arguably had repercussions far beyond the immediate problem of the event itself.
The new aircraft carrier HMS Indomitable, completed on October 1, 1941 was undergoing her working up exercises and was arriving in Kingston which was to be her Caribbean base.
Kingston Harbour is a large lagoon protected from the open Caribbean Sea by a narrow peninsula called the Palisadoes Strip with its entrance being at the western end. On the tip of Palisadoes is the famous town of Port Royal – home of 17th Century privateer Sir Henry Morgan and his buccaneers. Halfway along Palisadoes is the location of the Norman Manley International Airport.
Ships entering the harbour travel from east to west parallel to the strip then make a sharp turn to starboard to enter the lagoon. They have to navigate between numerous shoals along a channel which would be identified by buoys.
On the afternoon of November 3, Indomitable swung into the entry channel, cutting her engines to very slow ahead, almost drifting along at about 5 knots. FAA pilot Hugh Popham noted that the ship was quiet with the “ripple of the bow wave” being louder than the hum of the engines. It was a clear, calm day with a plain view of the city (then town) of Kingston beyond the Palisadoes Strip against the backdrop of the green hills and partly cloudy sky.
Suddenly there was a crash and a shudder and the ship stopped dead in her tracks. Initially there was the thought of a torpedo, but there weren’t supposed to be u-boats in the vicinity. There was only one explanation – they had run aground.
Last edited by GreenKnight121; 11th Dec 2012 at 05:47.
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As I understand the sequence of events....
At 1005: 9 X G3M "Nell" from the Genzan Air Corps attack with bombs the "S" Class destroyer HMS Tenedos which was detached from Force Z.
At 1113: 25 x G3M "Nell" from the Mihoro Air Corps attack both battleships with bombs (9 aircraft had 1 x 500Kg bomb - the remainder carried 2 x 250 Kg). There were 8 x near misses and Repulse was hit on the hangar deck.
At 1140: 16 x "Nell" from the Genzan Group; 8 x "Nell" from the Mihoro Group and 26 x G4M "Betty" from the Kanoya Air Group, all carrying one torpedo attacked force Z. PoW was hit 4 times and sank at 1218. Repulse was hit twice and sank at 1223. Three torpedo aircraft were lost in this final attack (one Nell from Genzan and two Bettys from Kanoya).
Force Z's escort of 10 x Brewster Buffalos from 453 Sqn RAAF arrived on scene at 1318, just in time to witness POW sink.
At 1005: 9 X G3M "Nell" from the Genzan Air Corps attack with bombs the "S" Class destroyer HMS Tenedos which was detached from Force Z.
At 1113: 25 x G3M "Nell" from the Mihoro Air Corps attack both battleships with bombs (9 aircraft had 1 x 500Kg bomb - the remainder carried 2 x 250 Kg). There were 8 x near misses and Repulse was hit on the hangar deck.
At 1140: 16 x "Nell" from the Genzan Group; 8 x "Nell" from the Mihoro Group and 26 x G4M "Betty" from the Kanoya Air Group, all carrying one torpedo attacked force Z. PoW was hit 4 times and sank at 1218. Repulse was hit twice and sank at 1223. Three torpedo aircraft were lost in this final attack (one Nell from Genzan and two Bettys from Kanoya).
Force Z's escort of 10 x Brewster Buffalos from 453 Sqn RAAF arrived on scene at 1318, just in time to witness POW sink.
Force Z's escort of 10 x Brewster Buffalos from 453 Sqn RAAF arrived on scene at 1318, just in time to witness POW sink.
Phillips had been advised after arrival in Singapore that he could not expect adequate air cover for his dash north up the South China Sea. He was later advised from Singapore by signal: "Fighter protection on Wed 10th [Dec] will not, repeat not, be possible". He continued to sail north with Force Z.
9 Dec, 1400hrs, Jap sub #165 sighted Force Z.
9 Dec, 1800hrs, Jap spotter aircraft (from Jap cruiser) spotted Z Force.
9 Dec, nightfall, Force Z altered course towards Kuantan. HQ Sing not advised.
10 Dec, 1000hrs, Jap a/c had again located Z Force.
88 bombers (above) prepare to make attacks on Z Force (source postwar analysis: US Strategic Bombing Survey, Interrogation of Jap Officials, File No. A.131, 14Nov45, p.387.3)
10 Dec, 1030hrs, destroyer HMS Tenedos signals Phillips "Am being bombed by enemy aircraft".
Because of the turn towards Kuantan, 453 Sqn could reach this range, but Phillips did not request air cover. Both battleships were soon under attack, but Phillips maintained radio silence.
10 Dec, 1204hrs, Captain of HMS Repulse broke radio silence on his own initiative, and called HQ Singapore; "enemy aircraft bombing".
10 Dec, 1210hrs, 453 Sqn, 11 Buffalos airborne on scramble to 80km east of Kuantan.
10 Dec, 1220hrs, approx time of Repulse sinking.
10 Dec, 1318hrs, 453 Sqn arrive overhead and witness PoW roll over and sink.
Last edited by BBadanov; 11th Dec 2012 at 08:22.
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BBadanov.
Concur.
My father was 453 Sqn RAAF, Brewster Buffalo's, and often told me about PoW and Repulse. Squadron was on standby waiting for the call at Sembawang Airfield at the time of their sinking. As history shows they were never called in to assist Force Z, before or after ships left harbour until far too late.
Sad indeed.
JO.
Concur.
My father was 453 Sqn RAAF, Brewster Buffalo's, and often told me about PoW and Repulse. Squadron was on standby waiting for the call at Sembawang Airfield at the time of their sinking. As history shows they were never called in to assist Force Z, before or after ships left harbour until far too late.
Sad indeed.
JO.
Last edited by judge.oversteer; 11th Dec 2012 at 08:57.
My father was 453 Sqn RAAF, Brewster Buffalo's
I'm not sure that the best efforts of the available fighters would have made much difference to the outcome in this case: with an attacking force of nearly 90 aircraft, operated by highly trained and experienced crews, a squadron of Allied fighters, however well-flown and led, would have struggled to save the ships. And I wonder if, had Indomitable been there as well, it would have been 3 capital ships lost instead of two...
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Hi Torque,
He flew Kittyhawks (82 Sqn Horn Island) mainly after leaving Singapore via Colombo. Also Wirraways, Boomarangs and small amount on Airacobras.
I've tried to put a brief article on 453 Sqn on the Aviation History forum but can't seem to get it to post. Thanks to all especially India 42.
JO.
He flew Kittyhawks (82 Sqn Horn Island) mainly after leaving Singapore via Colombo. Also Wirraways, Boomarangs and small amount on Airacobras.
I've tried to put a brief article on 453 Sqn on the Aviation History forum but can't seem to get it to post. Thanks to all especially India 42.
JO.
Mitsubishi aircraft. Hmm. I wonder if this chap may have had something
to do with it.
William Forbes-Sempill, 19th Lord Sempill - Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia
I've always thought that the Zero was a bit like a monoplane Sopwith Camel, with the pilot, guns, engine etc. tightly clustered around the front of the aircraft and it's centre of gravity.
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Wander,
Yes, you should.
At that stage of the the war the G4M Betty was probably one of the best bombers of the war!
As was a lot of the Japanese aircraft during early WW2.
Do not underestimate the Japanese technology at that stage, they were very, very good.
Ciao.
JO.
Yes, you should.
At that stage of the the war the G4M Betty was probably one of the best bombers of the war!
As was a lot of the Japanese aircraft during early WW2.
Do not underestimate the Japanese technology at that stage, they were very, very good.
Ciao.
JO.
